In this episode:
This episode, we are joined by Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac, Director of the Bethlehem Institute for Peace and Justice—a project of the Bethlehem Bible College—and Pastor of the Christmas Evangelical Lutheran Church in Bethlehem. Rev. Dr. Munther is the author of The Other Side of the Wall: A Palestinian Christian Narrative of Lament and Hope and his new book, Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza (available now).
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Transcript
Lisa Sharon Harper: [00:00:00] Coming to you from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, the city of brotherly love and sisterly affection. I’m Lisa Sharon Harper, president of Freedom Road, a consulting group dedicated to shrinking the narrative gap. Welcome to the Freedom Road podcast. Each episode, we speak with national and international faith leaders, advocates, scholars, artists, activists, athletes, um, to have the kinds of conversations that we normally have on the front lines.
It’s just that this time we’ve got microphones in our faces and you are listening in. This episode, we are joined by Reverend Dr. Munther Isaac, director of the Bethlehem Institute for Peace and Justice, a project of the Bethlehem Bible College, and pastor of the Christmas Evangelical Lutheran Church in Bethlehem.
And Reverend Dr. Munther is the author of The Other Side of the Wall, a [00:01:00] Palestinian Christian narrative of lament and hope, and his new book, which is out now, Christ in the Rubble. Faith, the Bible, and the genocide in Gaza. So we would love to hear your thoughts. Tweet to me, or actually, no, don’t tweet because I’m not on the Twitter, the tweeter machine anymore.
Um, you can blue sky me or thread me or Insta me or Facebook me, um, at Lisa S. Harper and on Facebook, it’s Lisa Sharon Harper or Freedom Road at Freedom Road. Us. everywhere except on Facebook, where it’s freedom road dot us. Um, and so keep sharing the podcast with your friends and networks and letting us know what you think.
Okay. All right, let’s dive in. Okay. So, um, first of all, how would you like for me to refer to you? Would you like for me to refer to you as Reverend Dr. Isaac, Reverend Dr. Munther, Munther.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: We’ve [00:02:00] known each other for a long time. Come on. Just call me Munther. Please. Okay.
Lisa Sharon Harper: I just need, you know, some people really do get angry when people don’t give them their due.
So that’s why I’m asking. Okay. So Munther, it has been a year since we sat down before. On this podcast to talk about the unfolding genocide in Gaza and in that year, more than 62, 000 people have been killed, um, by Israel in Gaza and, um, the Lancet group actually, uh, suggests that their studies, their data shows that it’s likely that more than 100, 000 people, actually more than 200,000 people have died indirectly as a result of the war in terms of famine and lack of hospital care and other things. 200,000 people, 1300 have died in Israel. The U. S. provided billions of dollars and bombs without [00:03:00] condition to aid this slaughter, and then helped to broker a three phase peace plan that starts with the hostage exchange. And we’ve actually seen that hostage exchange actually play out, even in the midst of many setbacks.
So in the middle of all of this, we had an election and now the American, the new American president Donald Trump is declaring that the U. S. will own Gaza, pushing all Gazans into Jordan and Egypt. So I’m, first of all, I just want us to start this conversation with giving you as much space as you want to talk about how you’ve been processing all of this.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: Yeah, well, thanks again for having me and, um, for giving us voice as, as Palestinian Christians. Um, it’s really been hard, uh, and, uh, with a lot of conflicting views, uh, when you hear, uh, this [00:04:00] I don’t know how to describe it. Is it ridiculous? Is it an evil plan to ethnically cleanse 2 million people, uh, and just to try to cover it as a humanitarian solution?
You know that he is somehow concerned. Uh, for the people of Gaza, right? Uh, let’s be clear. One of the things I actually talked about in the book is how, uh, Trump’s son in law, Jared Kushner actually spoke about the economic potential, the investment potential of the shores of Gaza. Oh yeah.
Lisa Sharon Harper: We remember that. Wasn’t that like soon? Like this is like October of 2023.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: He came out a few months into the genocide. He came out with that statement into it.
Okay.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: And I was shocked back then that, you know, someone in a, in a university who was giving a lecture would just casually suggest that without getting or receiving any pushback only now to, uh, see, uh, the [00:05:00] president of the strongest country in the world, possibly Uh, and then the idea of displacing and then openly calling for replacing them with new people, the people of the world, as he put it, right?
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: He is basically, uh, you know, this is the textbook definition of settler colonialism. You displace the indigenous people and your replacement with new people to them. That’s actually to someone like Trump. Yeah. And his legacy and what he represents. It’s actually a good thing.
Lisa Sharon Harper: I want to talk about that a little bit later in terms of how people are seeing how some people see colonization as a good thing.
Um, yeah. How are you and especially on the West Bank? I mean, the West Bank hasn’t been getting as much play.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: No, but, the West Bank is already, you know, we’re beginning to see this unfold in the West Bank. And that’s the thing that very, very few media outlets are talking [00:06:00] about it.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: Today, close to 45,000 Palestinians have been displaced in the West Bank.
Lisa Sharon Harper: What?
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: This is in Jenin, Nablus, uh, 45, 000, uh, such a small number. Israel has destroyed big parts of the Jenin refugee camp. People were forced to leave the refugee camp into the city of Jenin. So they are now refugees again. First time 1948 and now again refugees. The idea is to Um, and the refugee case to make sure you know, no one talks about refugees anymore.
That’s why, you know, Netanyahu and now backed by Trump have been on the war against on or what the, uh, main humanitarian. Aid organization for Palestinians because it’s affiliated with refugees. Uh, and as a result, 45,000 Palestinians have already been displaced. Um, before,
Lisa Sharon Harper: wait, before you move forward, ’cause I’m sure some people have the same question I have, which is [00:07:00] why would, why would talking about refugees be such a threat, tuna and Yahoo or Trump?
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: Because it, it acknowledges what I would call the original sin of, of the state of Israel, the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their homes. And keep in mind, those refugees have the right to return. Uh, this is granted to them by the U.N. Resolutions. So that’s why, uh, organizations like on Norway exist because these people are entitled to return to their homes or to be compensated if they accept to Um, and as long as they exist, then it’s a reminder to the world of how it all started.
So they want to eliminate all of this. They want to eliminate the possibility of any Palestinian right compensation, uh, and just they want to tell us, move forward, uh, find another land, find another place. Uh, no one’s going to give you anything. It’s [00:08:00] basically the. complete trespassing of the international law and human rights.
You’re saying you have no rights. International laws don’t matter anymore. We will do whatever we want because we can and no one holds us accountable. And this is to me the biggest danger of the moment we live in. The next step is clearly the annexation of the West Bank. Some people might not understand what that means.
That means, uh, uh, you know, making the settlements in the West Bank and all the areas around them, including the roads, the infra, the, the, the land around the settlements, the military bases that protect and part of the state of is Israel, leaving Palestinians with fragments of land where our cities. And if you hear anything about the checkpoints that surround the West Bank today again, uh, very few people are talking about the West Bank, not just the 45, 000 displaced.
Their homes have been destroyed. 45, 000. It’s not a small number [00:09:00] since you think…
Lisa Sharon Harper: That’s not a small number, but I’m going, that’s a large number. I mean, that’s huge.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: In addition to that, since October 7th, Israel has installed close to, and listen to this, 900 new gates. Checkpoints and roads outside the cities in the West Bank, including close to 90 outside of Bethlehem, which means 19
Lisa Sharon Harper: just outside of Bethlehem.
Little Bethlehem.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: Yeah, 90
Lisa Sharon Harper: What?
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: Yes. So if the gate that is between my house and my school, my kids school, which is a four minute drive, four minute, if the gate is closed, I have to go on dirt roads to avoid and find a new way. And it could take up to 30 to 40 minutes to give my school, my children a ride to school.
There is no way to guess. If the gate is closed or open and that there are checkpoints, if the gate is closed, that’s it. You turn and find another road. Then there are checkpoints and the [00:10:00] movement from and into Bethlehem is confined with two checkpoints. These are not the checkpoints that goes to Jerusalem and the Israeli side.
These are the checkpoints that take us to other Palestinian towns. And these days it could take up to six hours, five hours waiting on the checkpoint just to go from one place to the other.
Lisa Sharon Harper: Can I ask a question? Because this is this I’m sure some people are asking this. How now this is like just a basic question of territorial rights, right?
If this has been deemed the West Bank or Palestine, this is an area that the international community and Israel at various points, particularly in 48, even in 67, um, understood these areas to be Palestinian lands operated and run by Palestinian people. How do they have? The right or even the inkling that they can set up check.
This is [00:11:00] like it will be like Canada setting up checkpoints in Michigan. You know what I mean?
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: So basically, uh, Israel, uh, officially fooled the world into saying yes, we accept the two-state solution. What happened is when Israel was created, the international community came up with the idea. Let’s divide the land into two segments.
The new state of Israel will be on 78 percent of the land. Palestinians get 22 percent of the land. Only 20 Palestinians considered that a compromise. And we said, Okay, we get our right for self determination, sovereignty over this land that never materialized. Um, and the biggest, the single biggest obstacle to that is the building of settlements within the 22 percent known as the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza, the land occupied in 67.
Now, since then, it has been internationally recognized that building of these settlements is illegal by the international law. And the official [00:12:00] position of the United States in particular has always been that we do not recognize these settlements, they are illegal. was able to maintain and build these settlements gradually and slowly and the checkpoints under the pretext of security.
Now it never made sense to build settlements for security. Um, and blame that on the French radical groups who would always say the problem is not the religious groups that built the settlements. It’s the government that funds and protects them. And, uh, You know, the number of settlers increased from around 20, 000 when Oslo began the talks, the peace talks between Palestinians and Israelis that we hope will ultimately lead into a state under 22 percent into what is now close to seven or 800, 000 Jewish settlers within the West Bank in a place like Bethlehem, the governor of Bethlehem, the number of Jewish settlers is almost the [00:13:00] same number as the Palestinians living in Uh, in in the last.
So again, this is the essence of displace and replace. They want to displace the original the indigenous community with new communities. Uh, finally, you know, the position of the United States against settlement began changing under Trump. Biden said and did nothing. Settlement continued to be to increase dramatically.
Settler violence is now something that is Everyone’s talking about, then came these checkpoints. The checkpoints, what they do is fragment the Palestinian communities so that there is no continuity. Uh, and now it’s very similar and I kid you not, it’s very similar to the, to the, uh, reservation concept or concentration camps.
Lisa Sharon Harper: Reservations for indigenous people or townships for South Africans or favelas for black Brazilians. I mean, it’s just, it is the modus operandi.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: It’s the same concept. So
Lisa Sharon Harper: [00:14:00] yeah,
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: that was the test point because Gaza was isolated, uh, under blockade for 16 years. The world did nothing. We were shouting. This is inhumane.
No human, you cannot treat humans like this. was silent. And now, believe me, Janine will be the next Gaza. Nablus will be the next Gaza. Bethlehem, with disclosure of these two checkpoints, will be the next Gaza, where we cannot leave or enter, uh, unless through one checkpoint, and that’s it. So we’re heading towards where Israel is creating these communities of Palestinians surrounded completely, whether through the settlements, the separation wall, military bases.
And we have nowhere else to go, basically, uh, and the message is clear. Why don’t you leave? You know, why don’t you try to find, uh, in fact, just, um, if, if it’s not that clear, the Jewish settlers outside of Bethlehem A few, uh, a month ago or two months [00:15:00] ago, put billboards outside of Bethlehem in Arabic, mind you.
These are the Jewish settlers that saying there is no place for you in Palestine, leave. So their message is clear.
Lisa Sharon Harper: They said it explicitly.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: Yes, yes, of course. Um, and this is the, you know, this is why now there is, if we take it back to Gaza, This is why there’s so much pressure on Jordan and Egypt to take the Gazans.
Because this is the perfect opportunity to get rid of two million Palestinians and gradually take over the Gaza Strip and bring in new communities and develop it. And then the West will come and see, wow, nice areas, nice hotel. Israel turned the desert into the Garden of Eden and everyone will celebrate it.
And to bring it to our audience, uh, many churches and theologians will say, oh, you know. This is fulfillment of prophecy with total disregard to the lives, to the destiny, to the, [00:16:00] uh, tragedy, uh, of Palestinians that is unfolding as we speak.
Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah, and also with disregard to the details of that prophecy, as in we’ll get into that in the next segment, a little teaser there
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: It has nothing to do with prophecy.
Let’s be clear. This has nothing to do with the reign of God on earth, the reign of peace, shalom, justice. This is the exact opposite of what the prophecies talked about. The prophecies talked about the moment in which God intervenes in history to bring this Something we’re thirsty for, uh, the, the, the concept of peace, of justice, of, uh, this is nothing like that.
This is, uh, with, I mean, I’m not exaggerating, I’m not using this as evil, uh, you know, but, you know, this is the embodiment of evil.
Lisa Sharon Harper: So, so, Munther, um, your book, Christ in the Rubble, it was actually inspired by your sermon, Christ Under the Rubble, which you preached [00:17:00] during Advent 2023 and was seen by people all over the world.
I mean, I think it’s probably like, I would imagine millions of views by now. So can you just tell us, what is it that led you to transform your sermon into a book?
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: I think, uh, I wanted to send the bigger message. Um, uh, because many people know me because of that sermon, uh, but they should know what’s behind that sermon, the story of Palestine, uh, the pain we have been enduring, not just from Israel, but from our siblings in Christ who have been adding to our pain.
So I wanted to expand on that and let the people, especially those who know me from the sermon. Which you’re right, you know, to my shock every day. I’m surprised that people all over the world, not just in the States, not just the English speaking world. Everybody listen to it. Um, this is an opportunity to explain what [00:18:00] is behind the anger, the frustration, uh, of that.
And it’s also a call, you know, you’ve been moved by the sermon. So what, what is the ask? You know, what can you do? Join a movement? Uh, take sides because this is precisely the time in which. Uh, and it’s bigger than Palestine. It’s much bigger than Palestine. We need to take sides.
Lisa Sharon Harper: You said something profound just now.
You said, um, it has to do with the pain that Western Christians have been inflicting on Christians in Palestine. Can you kind of explain what you meant by that?
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: What it began years ago when our land was described a land without people, not just by designers, but by Christians who looked at Palestine and saw in it.
Potentially a homeland for the Jewish people with total disregard. to our existence with total disregard to the fact that we’ve been living there, or even total disregard to the Christian community that’s been holding the [00:19:00] Christian witness there. And then we’ve seen that translation, translating into political support to the new state of Israel over, even if it meant the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, we’ve seen it translate into unconditional support, uh, to Israel.
And also it brought an embarrassment to us as Christians, as a, you know, Middle Eastern and Arab Christians, because how is it that we were asked constantly that, uh, you know, we have People using the Bible, the name of God and the name of Jesus, to promote the concept of a tribal, racist, violent God. Uh, because this is what Zionism is.
And so, uh, we were forced to not just, you know, challenge them, but to defend the, uh, the, uh, purity of the Christian witness. We, how many times we kept saying not in our name, this is not the gospel message. This is not the God we encounter in Jesus is not the God of the gospels. [00:20:00] So this is why to us, this is an important issue.
Lisa Sharon Harper: These are our stories. You’re listening to the freedom road podcast, where we bring you stories from the front lines. of the struggle for justice.
So, Munther, one of the things that we talked about just now, you, you know, I had, like, I have notes, I have questions that I want to ask, but, but you raised something that, um, made me ask another question. I mean, you talked about, um, Zionism. Um, and you kind of dropped a few words there that some people may not be familiar with.
So I wonder if you can explain what is Christian Zionism, because that’s really what you’re referring to here. Um, and what is the impact that it’s had on the Christians in [00:21:00] Palestine?
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: I think for many years we tried to, uh, analyze, define and interact with Christian Zionism, uh, from the wrong framework, namely, let’s discuss scripture.
Does it call for support to Israel and the restoration of the Jewish people and so on? And after many years, I think many of us, uh, Palestinian theologians and activists have reached the conclusion that this is the wrong approach. Uh, instead, this is how I would today describe or define Christian Zionism by first defining what Zionism is.
And then Christian Zionism is the Christian version of that
for the Christian support of that. So what is Zionism? Zionism, you know, uh, quite simply is the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine.
That’s what Zionism by definition is, the establishment of a Jewish homeland. [00:22:00] So, uh, we have somehow two problems with that definition.
The first one, obviously, is that Palestine is, is, is not empty. You can’t establish a homeland for yourself on someone else’s land.
And actually the Zionist leaders. From the very beginning recognize this challenge and planned the displacement of Palestinians. They would put it in a colorful language saying Palestine is a beautiful bride, but it’s taken.
So we must find a place to, you know, a solution to that. The idea of transfer, as the Zionist leaders put it, the early Zionist leaders, is what is equivalent to ethnic cleansing, transferring Palestinians to somewhere. So they recognized this from the beginning. So, so Zionism by definition necessitates ethnic cleansing of Palestine.
And then it’s a Jewish homeland. It’s an exclusive homeland. It’s a national, it’s an ethnocentric. or religious centric, uh, homeland. Uh, and just to be clear, uh, Zionism is not seeking refuge in Palestine. It’s not [00:23:00] Jews returning to Palestine to connect with their ancient homeland or Jews returning to Palestine to connect spiritually.
No, Zionism is the establishment. It’s the colonization of Palestine to establish a state. It’s very simple.
Lisa Sharon Harper: Can I ask a question?
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: There’s a big difference between the two concepts. We have to be clear. And when we challenge Zionism, when I challenge that, I’m not denying the religious or even historical connection between Jews and Palestine.
What we’re challenging is translating that into political rights to establish an exclusive state for yourself by displacing the indigenous people. That’s what we are against.
Lisa Sharon Harper: Right. Now this is, this is the question that I have though, is that as I was going back into the scripture myself and asking the question of, you know, what’s the promise, what is the promise?
It never, it, it never actually says that you need to clear out the land from the people that are there. It actually is. [00:24:00] In fact, it can also be translated as this is going to be a land where you dwell and others dwell too. Um, so. I know that there are people who are Jewish Zionists who believe that who, who do not think of it in the way that the state of Israel is con is looking at it now.
And also that extremist vi Zionist look at it now. So is it, is, do you see that possibility of, ’cause it looks like you, it sounds like you do, like you actually see that. What you’re fighting against is the question of erasure, the question of ethnic cleansing as Zionism. Do you know, do you know, do you understand what I’m saying?
Does that make sense?
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: Yeah, I mean, ultimately, um, we have to talk about, so, um, what we’re calling for is not the destructure or even removing Jews or asking Jews to leave Palestine. That’s not what we’re calling for.
Right.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: What we’re challenging is, [00:25:00] uh, the system of ethnic supremacy or religious supremacy.
Yes.
Lisa Sharon Harper: Which is not something that was commanded in scripture. Of course not. Of course not.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: Yeah. And, and, and just to be very clear, uh, if you want to ask me about Christian, and, and what am I saying now, what I will say now might come shocking to some, um, we cannot use scripture to conclude political entitlement today.
Come on now. Scripture, you know, first of all, scripture doesn’t teach this. Second, scripture is not the reference point for political disputes today. You don’t see Mexico and America fighting over territory and then one of them saying we have a religion that says this. You can’t use that. There is international law.
There are agreements and things that we all agree on because if the Zionist side of the argument is, well, God gave us the land 4000 years ago. I mean, how can you discuss that? Really? [00:26:00]
Yeah.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: Do we counter that by saying, well, Muslims have a religion and it tells them the same thing. So let’s have a fight between the two gods.
Really? Is this what we ask Christians are? And to me, it shocks me when American politicians use scripture
to
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: justify Jewish entitlement to the land. I wish people use scripture to say there are principles of justice, equality and reconciliation and scripture that we can use to help Palestinians and Israeli get along now that they have found themselves in this mess.
Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah,
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: it begins by challenging supremacy. So what we’re saying quite simply, if you want, you know, so what those people keep asking me, so what’s the solution? I think that everything lies in Israel’s hand because they have all the all the keys. What we have as Palestinians is our existence. We exist here.
We’re not going anywhere.
And
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: Israel must decide either they create one state for the two of us based on equality. And I don’t think Um, you know, we have examples of [00:27:00] history of colonialism that ended this way. Uh, or, uh, they accept dividing the land in a fair way. So we have our own self determination and state as Palestinians or they eliminate us.
And as long as they can, and they’re not held accountable, that’s what they’re heading right now. They want to eliminate us. Um, and as long as Palestinians continue to exist, they will continue to resist. the injustice and the oppression they face. It’s it’s natural. It’s it’s the nature of, you know, it’s very natural how Palestinians are responding.
What’s interesting is that not many have been violent. Most have chosen nonviolence. What’s interesting is that, you know, and and normal is that we resist. in different ways. I belong to a community that has been very, very committed to nonviolence. Uh, but it’s not only the Christians. Many Palestinians are committed.
[00:28:00] So ultimately, uh, either one of, you know, one of us eliminates the other, and we as Palestinians are powerless.
Or,
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: you know, we share or divide the land. It’s, to me, I don’t see any other solution. Israel has chosen the, the, the option of continuing to eliminate us and Subjecting us to the system off, uh, Jewish supremacy.
That is called by the way. Let’s use what the international community agreed on. This is called apartheid. Um, it’s not my, my word. It’s not as I’m being offensive to Israel or aggressive. This is what everyone accepts now as the.
Lisa Sharon Harper: It’s observable. I mean, just to go and to just go move through any of those checkpoints, the militarized checkpoints, anybody who’s been to South Africa and understands how that land was partitioned and then goes to the West Bank now, it’s, you just, you can’t get around it.
That’s just what it is. It just is what it is. I have [00:29:00] a question for you. So Christ in the rubble is a concise challenge to Western Christianity’s unquestioned embrace of the modern state of Israel. We’ve been, we’ve just been talking about that, but this, this message really feels dangerous right now.
It’s, um, especially in light of growing censorship all over the world. So I’m wondering how are you planning to take this? Around the world in a time when this message is being more strongly censored, um, not only by social media, but also by the news and even by publishing houses. I mean, your publisher, um, how are they feeling about, about this message going out around the world?
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: Yeah. Interestingly, or ironically, um. Those who complained for years about cancel culture are now canceling as Palestinians.
Lisa Sharon Harper: That’s exactly right. Hello.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: The pressure on, on, on, [00:30:00] um, what’s also interesting is that there is so much, um, it’s, it’s a violation of your right of speech, even in the United States as Americans, you know, you cannot speak about Palestine today.
You face, you might even face legal consequences.
Um,
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: to me, it’s, we are now in the Um, stage of the no return because we just witnessed a genocide life on earth. Uh, this is not the time for diplomacy. This is not the time for soft speech. I think we need to call things as they are and hold people accountable because this is a historical moment.
This is a critical moment in our history and history will remember where we stood.
Uh,
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: and, uh, to be honest and very transparent with you, there was a time in my life, in my ministry, I’ve been speaking on Palestine. Those who know me for years. I mean, many knew me from Christ in the rubble, but [00:31:00] I’ve been doing this and you came to Christ at the checkpoint many years ago.
Uh, there was a time when I would be very, very careful about. How I would be.
Lisa Sharon Harper: I remember that.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: And when I
Lisa Sharon Harper: came in 2016, yes, you were in that space. Absolutely.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: Now that we’ve witnessed a genocide, honestly, you know, what else can we lose? And now that we are literally literal, not exaggerating, literally facing an existential crisis, we might not be here 10 years from now.
I can’t be silent. I don’t care what people think.
Mm-hmm.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: I will speak out. Those who will receive me, uh, I’m grateful. Those who will not. It’s on you. Uh, and I’ve said this in the sermon, Christ on the rubble. We will recover. I don’t know what about you. So it’s on you. Uh, it’s on those who refuse. And I know too well, you know, there will come a time in history when people will look back at this moment, sadly, when it could be too late, you know, and I hope we [00:32:00] don’t let people get away with it.
This is what I mean, you know, How many people now celebrate in words only, of course, the legacy of Martin Luther King, but we’re always strong opponents of that movement. And now they all want to say, Oh, we were on the right. So I want to make sure I don’t, you know, no, we will remember where you stood. Um, we already written about it.
You know, we’ve heard what you’ve said. Uh, and if if people don’t want to listen to us, you know, history will remember that. Um,
Lisa Sharon Harper: when, when crafting your book, when designing like the, the structure of your book and the story that you tell, um, what would you say would be like some of like your three main points that you want to make sure if people read this book, what are the three things that you hope that they definitely walk away understanding?
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: Um, well, three points, let me try to think first. You’re pastor, come
Lisa Sharon Harper: on. It’s a sermon. .
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: [00:33:00] Maybe the first point would be that, um, things did not start in October 7th. Okay. So the context, um, uh, there’s a whole, I think two, three chapters on the context. Mm-hmm . Uh, what happened, why, and then what led. What led to that moment, not to justify it, by the way, as people try to think.
No, it’s just to explain the context. And as I said, it did not start on October 7th. We need to understand that the second thing is that, um, a genocide took place. And I don’t use that word lightly. I think we need to be responsible by the words which we use. It’s not a word I choose. It’s a word that has been, uh, that rightly describes what took place, and in the book, I explain precisely why that is true, and actually, since the book have came, more and more evidence proves, since I’ve written the book, uh, that genocide is the right word.
Everyone acknowledges this in the international community. They’re just afraid [00:34:00] to say it publicly, but many have said it publicly. Uh, so my point is not just that a genocide is taking place, but a genocide has taken place. And Christian theology supported, justified, or was silent when that happened. And I want to hit that point, because, you know, we cannot accept this as Christians, yet another.
Staying on our, sadly, our heritage of siding with empire. And, and, you know, it’s not the first time. Let’s be honest with ourselves. There’s something wrong with the way people understand the teachings of Jesus. So I want to say Christian theology and churches have been complicit in this war or even directly supportive of this war of genocide.
And I want to call it out and say, we cannot accept this as Christians. And maybe the third point is the call to repentance that we have issued as Palestinian Christians. I stress that, uh, and in it, you know, you don’t [00:35:00] just call someone to repent, but what do you embrace? And that’s the idea of the God who is in solidarity with the marginalized and the oppressed.
That’s the, uh, that’s how the message of Christ in the rubble actually came to being.
Uh,
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: when I tried to preach to our people who were in pain, were suffering, who were angry in anguish over the loss of loved ones and over the silence of the western church or the support of the western church to this I wanted to say let’s be clear Where god stands where jesus stands he stands with the marginalized and oppressed.
This is the proof This is what scripture teaches And when Jesus was born, he was born among the occupied. When Jesus was born, he challenged the throne of Herod. Herod was terrified. He escaped a genocide himself, a massacre of children. So the concept of Christ in the rubble The message was originally the solidarity of God with the marginalized.
So when we call [00:36:00] people to repent, we’re calling them to embrace this God who is in solidarity with the oppressed, and then that solidarity in turn must become our solidarity. This is the message of the church. This is the mission of the church. So maybe that’s my three 0. 7.
Lisa Sharon Harper: Really appreciate that. And actually it was, it was a really great little sermon there.
But more than that, um, it, you, you actually, you raised another question and it goes back to this question of Zionism, because I think that what you described was what we would typically understand as Jewish Zionism, but Christian Zionism is particular has another, it’s, it’s, it’s not just the belief in Jewish Zionism.
It also has another bent to it that actually is, Deeply anti Semitic and ultimately also calls for the genocide of Jews who don’t let’s talk about that. Yeah.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: Yeah, so Christian Zionism is the support to Zionism from Christian and let’s talk very, very [00:37:00] briefly. And I know this could take hours to, uh, unpack, but there are Christians who support Zionism because they believe it’s, uh, it’s somehow part of God’s unfolding eschatological plan.
And in that plan, Jews will gather in Palestine in preparation for the restoration, except something comes before that. And that thing is Israel. a global battle against the Jewish people in which two thirds of the Jewish people will be massacred. And in fact, I’ve heard with my ears, a Christian Zionist pastor and evangelical pastor preach the sermon in front of a Messianic Jewish audience.
So these are Jews who believed in Christ and he would say the Holocaust will be nothing in comparison to what will happen. Uh, and then after that, Jesus will come to save them and Um, he will save them. And then two thirds, uh, the one third that, [00:38:00] uh, was rescued, uh, will embrace Jesus. In other words, will become Christian.
So You know, we can use words to describe this, but let me simplify. Two thirds will, you know, come to Palestine. Two thirds of you will will be killed. The other third will embrace Christianity. And somehow that’s a pro Jewish theology, really. Right. And the whole idea of Making Jews subjects in our eschatology is very problematic, if we’re honest about it.
We cannot relate to Jews as objects in our eschatology. Come on! We relate to them based on our own parameters and, uh, framework. Jews deserve better. And, uh, I always said in my first book, Jews are people of faith, let’s relate to them as such. It does not matter whether Jews will come to faith in Christ or not.
Whether, um, Jews will be restored to the land and establish their own kingdom. None of that matters when it comes to the [00:39:00] Christian ethics toward Jews as neighbors. We must love them whether they will be saved or not be saved. We shouldn’t ask or construct these scenarios and based on these scenarios relate to the Jewish people.
It’s offensive to them. And by the way, many of my Jewish friends agree precisely on that, uh, on that point.
Lisa Sharon Harper: Walking Freedom Road from coast to coast. And around the globe, this is the Freedom Road Podcast.
I actually want, thank you, first of all, for kind of going back and forth on that question of Zionism and going so deep with that. Um, I think it’s much more, uh, it’s much clearer now, the variations and, and it’s also needs to be said that Christian Zionism has many forms, that there’s not just one, but what you described is kind of at the core of most [00:40:00] of them.
It’s that, that core belief that, that the majority of Jews will die. Basically, unless they they bow down to Jesus as Messiah, like they’re going to die. And then those who are left over will will bow down to Jesus as Messiah. And so that’s important. I think it’s important for us as. Our ethics and our Christian ethics to understand what we’re really saying here, what we’re, what we’re really saying here is that our eschatology, , um, our eschatological vision is one that requires genocide.
It requires genocide of Jewish people and. Implicitly, the Palestinian people, when we say that two thirds of the Jewish people will then return to the land, that’s basically saying that we are going to displace the Palestinian people. And it makes it, it makes it, it creates a situation where the ends [00:41:00] justify the means, right?
So you can do anything in the name of this eschatological vision of Jesus coming again and, and that particular, um, version. Of the story being fulfilled.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: So, yeah, um, let me talk about two very serious issues with this line of thinking. First, is this obsession with violence, which, to be honest, shocks me and shocks us as Palestinian Christians.
Is this obsession with violence to the extent that you have pastors and theologians justifying a war such as the one that happened in Gaza and calling it the justice of God? Or, uh, looking at the, uh, nuclear attack on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and saying that was a good thing. Let’s do it again in Gaza again.
These are questions. So this obsession with violence as a solution, the reason it shocks me or, [00:42:00] as you said, violence as part of the unfolding drama of God’s history,
future.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: What shocks us is that because this is the exact opposite of the ethics of Jesus, you know,
Lisa Sharon Harper: blessed are the peacemakers,
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: the meek, uh, the peacemakers.
Jesus was not, I mean, Jesus said, if someone hits you, you turn the other cheek and somehow you have Christian ethicists, ethicists. Who are willing to completely dismiss and ignore the ethics of Jesus when it comes to political questions, and that shocks me. It’s as if Jesus is irrelevant. It’s as if Jesus is this naive teacher, but somehow he’s his savior.
He gives us heaven, so we embrace him, but his ethics are naive. They are inapplicable in our world, and that shocks me. We cannot say that. Absolutely, we cannot say that. So that’s the first thing. And then the second thing is this. Construction of an ethnocentric community, ethno-religious centric [00:43:00] community of the Jewish people, and then, uh, relating to them as such as if they’re different.
Uh, that’s why, uh, a good friend of mine, Tony Daik, he’s a Palestinian theologian, uh, made a strong argument that Christian Zionism simply, quite simply, promotes the idea of a racist God. Yes. And you have to prove to us the opposite. He would say, because to you God has, you know, a special relationship with this ethnos community.
Right? And that acknowledges committee is different. They’re exceptional. They, you know, uh, and the idea is that, you know, God is racist. God deals with me based on my DNA, if my DNA is as such. This is my path of salvation. This is how God looks at me. And if my DNA is not that, I have certain privileges and entitlement, including coming to Palestine, displacing Palestinians, taking their land.
Uh, how do you [00:44:00] reconcile that again with the ethics of Jesus? How do you reconcile that with the, uh, you know, everything that, Paul tried to dismantle in Christ. There is no Jew or Gentile. You have Christians now won’t tell Paul. Oh, you have no idea. There is Jew and Gentile. There is a special plan for the Jew.
There is a special plan for the Gentile. God differentiates. God is racist. Isn’t that something?
Lisa Sharon Harper: And let me just, oh go on, I’m sorry.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: No, no, it’s, it’s to me, it’s because I look at it and it’s the exact opposite of what Paul was trying to do. But let me add one more thing. Because within the Hebrew scripture itself, I look at a text like Ezekiel 47, in which God tells Ezekiel, When God brings you back to the land, you shall treat the stranger like the native born.
They shall be allocated land just like the native born. I mean, even in the Hebrew scripture, [00:45:00] this idea of ethnic supremacy is challenged, and somehow we bring it back. Are you serious? Are you serious? So this is what shocks me. This idea of Christian Zionism that brings back these ethnic boundaries and give special entitlement.
I mean, I can talk more about the wrong understanding of elections, not about a privilege and entitlement. That’s something else. It’s about, you know, these lines that we have drawn. The lines that I would argue, let me talk as a Christian. I don’t want to speak on behalf of the Jewish community, but it’s very clear that this is exactly what the New Testament was preaching against, and now we’re bringing it back.
Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah, I want to actually just add that Peter had his own moment on the roof when he dreamt of all of that unclean food coming down in the blanket and then God saying, take and eat what I’ve made clean, you cannot declare [00:46:00] unclean. And then having, um, having Cornelius knock on the door and go, uh, God told me to come and hang out with you.
And Peter had this aha moment. He literally said, I mean, this is in black and white. He said, God shows no partiality.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: Exactly. Exactly. Uh, and I was just looking for it to quote it for you. God shows no partiality.
Yeah. And
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: now we have Christian theologians saying, except he does. Some people get the land, others don’t.
Some people are entitled, others are not. I mean, it’s, it’s mind boggling to me.
Lisa Sharon Harper: So can I ask you, I actually, I want you to go back again to this question of what is the impact that this thinking about Israel, the modern state of Israel has had on Christians in Palestine? And I know that I’ve heard a lot, um, of people talking about the dwindling [00:47:00] numbers of Christian Palestinians in Gaza.
Um, can you talk to us a little bit about that, but also just the state of the church in Palestine as a result of Christian Zionism. And again,
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: Gaza, Gaza is the obvious example, uh, but it’s not only Gaza.
Right.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: Um, so when the war started, there was close to 1000 Christians in Gaza. Now at best, there is 600.
Uh, and we know that the majority of them lost their homes. So a big question remains when the war is over. What will their fate be? Where will they live? Will they be able to fix their homes? Will they want to stay after this traumatic experience? And some of them we talked to tell us we just want to leave if we get the opportunity, because it’s just too hard on us.
And some actually tell us, uh, no force on earth will make us leave. If we die, we will die in our church and we will not leave. [00:48:00] So some are very, very determined. Others have been, uh, you know, and I don’t blame them. Honestly, I don’t blame them, especially if you lost your house. I mean, where would you live?
Lisa Sharon Harper: Right. It’s demoralizing, too. To live not only without a house, but to live without water, to live without sanitation, to live without food. Come on.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: And the images they’ve seen, whether those who were killed at the church or outside of the church or in their communities, I’ve spoken to some of the nuns, God bless them, how courageous they are.
Who? Uh, lived a big part of the war for many months in the first 10 months in Gaza,
uh,
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: when they left, uh, and actually, you know, they wanted to stay. And I said, so why did you leave? They said, we have a vow of, uh, obedience. So our authority told us now you have to leave. They were concerned for their lives, honestly.
So they left and they said, on our way, we saw so many dead bodies. And even animals eating, you know, dogs eating the dead. So the images they’ve seen, one [00:49:00] nun explained to me how she carried a dead body in the church. You know, uh, two Christian women were shot in the church. Just before Christmas of last year.
So they’ve been, uh, emotionally traumatized and some have seen, you know, there is a young man who lost his wife and two Children, uh, in the attack on Saint Porphyrios Church. So will they survive? We don’t know. And the numbers will be too low to live too little. But since October seven, we’ve also witnessed the tragedy of a young man who died in the attack on Saint Porphyrios Church in the Um, maybe close to 200 Palestinian Christian family from the Bethlehem area leave Palestine.
Uh, 200 families is a big number for our community.
Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: I mean, it’s not a
Lisa Sharon Harper: large community to begin with Bethlehem. So for 200 Christian families to leave.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: Yes. And the reason is no jobs, uh, and fear. Uh, we’ve seen what happened in Gaza,
and
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: we ask all this be our faith. [00:50:00] And now there is yet one more reason, which is the checkpoints and gates I mentioned, because these checkpoints make life difficult.
So you know, honestly, I was just on a tour speaking in churches in Italy. The most difficult part for me was planning how to leave the country, first planning how to leave Bethlehem, then how to get to the border area, and then, uh, you know, it could take hours and hours. Waiting on checkpoints just to leave.
So that was the most difficult, uh, part, even in our journey. You know, we, we traveled freely in Italy with no concern. So if this is something you do on a daily basis, if you work between Bethlehem and Ramallah, which is hundreds of people do, you just get tired of waiting hours and hours on checkpoints.
If you are a student. You know, uh, and we are beginning to hear stories of students being harassed, even beaten at these checkpoints, the one between Bethlehem and Ramallah. [00:51:00]
So people
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: look at that and ask, you know, we can survive. We don’t want our children to be subjected to this. So most of the families leaving are actually young families with children.
And the reason they leave is. We made it through. We’re not sure our children will. So let’s try to find our children a better future. So this is a very difficult moment for the Christian community. I’m being, I’m not exaggerating, you know. And we are very, very concerned. Many of us are determined. Many of us are stubborn.
I am among the stubborn who say I will be the last to leave or I will die here no matter what. But, I don’t blame people for choosing as long as the situation is like this, you know, honestly, uh, can I guarantee that my Children will choose to stay, you know, uh, especially when you live all your life like this, you go outside to study.
and you [00:52:00] experience freedom of movement, just freedom of movement, you know, you don’t, you don’t care about political freedom or right. You just think I want to stay here. And that’s something very, very concerning for us as a Palestinian Christian community, uh, keep in mind their jobs since October 7th as a result of the war.
Lisa Sharon Harper: Wow. You know, I mean, you talk about freedom of movement and also visiting Italy. I mean, the reality in Europe is that you can travel freely between nations. I mean, there’s no border as in like, you know, checkpoints, you can literally get on one train and travel from, from, you know, country to country to country.
Just, you know, checking your passport along the way. There’s not. a mandate or a necessity. Every nation has to have a militarized border to keep people out or to keep safe. The reality is safety comes from good relationship with your neighbor, like loving your neighbor gives you
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: safety. But but the thing Lisa is that these [00:53:00] checkpoints are not for safety.
They are for control and humiliation. Right. We know that these security, these borders are not for safety, you know, out of the, uh, you know, hundreds of time across this checkpoint. I don’t think they have even once checked my bags. You know, that’s not the reason they just want to delay. So they close the checkpoint for many, many hours, then open it.
That’s it. You know, you just pass. When they open it, you just pass. So we know that it is for delay. At the same time, the border, the biggest obstacle now is the border from Jordan to Palestine. And that border, Israel limits the number of people who can travel. And so you could go there. Wait online. Um, outside sometimes outside of the border area in a car or in the street, just in the naked weather to get in.
You stamp your passport to get on a bus, and then they tell the bus. Okay, go back. And so you go back. You stay in Jordan. Next day you wake up. Sometimes you [00:54:00] could try to cross the boards. I’m not kidding for three or four days in a row trying to cross the borders. And to do so, you choose to come at 2 a. m.
so that when they open at 8 a. m., you are the first in line, uh, waiting outside. Some people can bear this, others can’t, to be honest. Uh, so this is how much control right now they have over our lives, our movement. Uh, life is unbearable, uh, in the West Bank. Uh, and again, uh, I feel embarrassed to complain in comparison to what’s happening in Gaza.
But this is the reality.
Lisa Sharon Harper: What do you think is the, the impact on the Western Church, the impact of this, um, belief in Christian Zionism and also support of Zionist political policies?
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: My concern is also the impact it has on the Christian witness, on the credibility of our Christian witness. Right. It’s a big impact. I think [00:55:00] this is hitting us at the core of who we are as Christians, uh, when we endorse Um, a regime that is imposing ethnic cleansing and apartheid and just committed a genocide.
Um, I think beyond that, there is so much, in addition to the witness on our credibility, there is so much questions now about The, uh, relevance and importance of things like human rights and international law. Just think of that. Four years after the Second World War, you know, humanity met and we said, never again.
And the church was on that side. Never again. Now we’re witnessing, um, human rights violations, the International Court of Justice and the International Criminal Court making very clear decisions. that are not respected. So what we’re saying basically is that chaos is [00:56:00] alternative. The rule of the powerful is alternative.
Now, if the church does not say anything in that towards that, um, who will, and will people take us seriously as people of faith? Lisa, God has blessed me with this, you know, opportunity to travel and listen to the cries of people. And when I travel and speak, um, let alone what I’m here in Palestine, and I speak a lot in gatherings, but when I travel and speak, I make sure every time I spend time with the people who come and, you know, sometimes I spend two hours after my talk, just talking to people.
The common thread I hear is that people lost hope in people of faith. They look at us as hypocrites, as the problem, um, precisely because of Gaza. And they say, you know, how can you talk to us about not just God, but justice and human rights anymore? Uh, so it’s about credibility here, whether we teach [00:57:00] about The gospel, forgiveness of sins, Jesus, uh, salvation to all humanity, or whether we talk about our collective humanity and justice for all, the church has lost a lot of its credibility and it has a lot of work to do to redeem itself.
That’s why in the book, our call was not a call of let’s talk, you know, we said, it’s a call for repentance because it’s the credibility of our Christian witness. That is precisely at stake here.
Lisa Sharon Harper: You talked about the alternative vision being one of peace. I wonder if you can, just in a few words, um, or word pictures, describe what that would look like.
What would peace, as in the eschatological vision of peace, but also when you think of, maybe even starting here, when you think of the political vision of peace in, in [00:58:00] Israel Palestine, what could you imagine? And then maybe broaden out from that to the eschatological vision of peace.
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: Yeah. Um, I think it’s not only our responsibility to speak out an alternative, but to embody an alternative.
Um, and one way of embodying that alternative is when we come together as people of faith from different backgrounds and saying, uh, no to colonialism, injustice and apartheid. So we need to come together. This can’t be a, you know, we do it alone as Christians or. God bless the many, many Jewish activists and voices and rabbis who are speaking out today louder than ever.
Um, we need one another. We need the many, many Muslim voices and even people of faith who want to speak of justice and equality to come together. That’s one way of doing it. [00:59:00] Embodying not just speaking, we can’t talk about. Uh, equality and justice. Yet each one of us works alone, you know, uh, and maybe to give one example of what that looks like yesterday at the Oscar Awards, something significant happened.
I think it was a small, small glimpse of hope, but I think it is a glimpse of hope. Not just the power of the message that was spoken in front of the millions, the moment itself of a Palestinian and Israeli coming together and saying no safety for one side without the freedom of the other, uh, speaking truth in a very, very powerful and clear way.
Uh, not fake peace and let’s hug and you know, but saying the problem, ethnic supremacy, they said it, you know, saying that the problem and then we are together. We can live together if we challenge the system [01:00:00] together. This is to me what the future looks like. Now, will this lead to a one state or a two state?
Honestly, Lisa, I don’t care. I want to see equal rights for all.
I want to
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: see dignity for all. I want to see safety for all. All prisoners released. And I will never give up on that vision because that’s what the prophetic tradition taught us. to continue imagining and embodying to the world an alternative.
Lisa Sharon Harper: No Other Land, everyone, is the film that, um, Reverend Dr. Manthur Isak is referencing. It won the Best Documentary Film Prize at the Oscars 2025. Which is kind of amazing, um, given that it really does tell the story of the last, um, well, really the story of the Palestinian people, the struggle, and especially over the last, uh, year and a half that we have had this struggle, more than a year and a half.
And you’re right, the, the, the speeches that were given. I mean, I was weeping in [01:01:00] my living room. Um, absolutely just astounded that we had this moment where not only, um, one or the other, but both Palestinian and Israeli, um, uh, filmmakers came together and were able to speak in unison about the need to find, um, to find a peaceful solution.
So I love that. Thank you so much for raising that. I was hoping to raise it. So I’m glad you did. Um, How about that eschatological vision? If, if people are reaching for, if people are looking for, um, what, what is, what does the real Jesus say about what peace will look like in the end? What do they find?
What do they see?
Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: No occupation, no apartheid, no genocide, no checkpoints, no demonization of one side of the other, no anti Semitism, no Islamophobia, equal rights, equal responsibilities, a shared land, a vision I’ve spoken about in my early book, The Other Side of the Wall, [01:02:00] a vision that now looks so distant, but we are fighting Uh, not to give up on in a vision that needs partners from all over the world to be materialized, a vision that needs courage.
Uh, this is what it looks like. Uh, if there is a will, politically we’ll find solution. I know what it does not look like. It does not, you know, it cannot be ethnic supremacy or religious supremacy or any side of discrimination. It cannot be that. It has to be dignity for all, equality, uh, for all. And believe me, If there is a will, we’ll find the right political mechanism to translate it.
Whether a two state, a confederate, a one state, I don’t care. You know, um, I’ve always said it, and it’s something that I hesitate speaking about in the last. Few months because of the nature of the genocide. But my dream has always been for my children to have Israeli friends, not, not to end the occupation, but [01:03:00] for us to be really sharing the land as friends, as equals.
Um, I don’t wanna give up on that dream, but right now, uh, I’m engaged in a struggle for survival. Before I can even think of a dream like that,
Lisa Sharon Harper: the conversations leaders have on the road to justice this. This is the Freedom Road Podcast. Thank you for joining us today. The Freedom Road Podcast is recorded in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and wherever our guests lay their heads that night. This episode was engineered and produced by Corey Nathan of Scan Media and executive produced by Freedom Road, LLC.
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