Andre Henry

In this Episode

On this episode we are joined by Andre Henry, author of All the White Friends I Couldn’t Keep, cohost of the Hope and Hard Pills Podcast, local LA-based activist and singer/songwriter/producer. His work has been featured in The Nation, The New Yorker, New York’s Lincoln Center, The Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts in Washington D.C., and Super Bowl LVI.!
Andre was invited to speak with us because he understands joy! And he understands the power of the arts to bring hope and vision and health—and we need some of that. So, in these summer months, amid historic indictments, historic environmental hazards, political targeting of everyone who isn’t a white male…
We’d love to hear your thoughts. Tweet to Lisa @LisaSHarper or to Freedom Road @FREEDOMROADUS. We’re also on Substack! So be sure to subscribe to The Truth Is… and Freedom Road. And, keep sharing the podcast with your friends and networks and letting us know what you think!

twitter.com/lisasharper
twitter.com/FreedomRoadus
freedomroad.substack.com/

hope-hard-pills.simplecast.com/
www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/673889/all-the-white-friends-i-couldnt-keep-by-andre-henry/
American Psychological Association Study: Racial discrimination and telomere shortening among African Americans: The Coronary Artery Risk Development in Young Adults (CARDIA) Study – psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fhea0000832

Mentioned in this episode:

Black Fatigue, by Mary-Frances Winters

Hope in the Dark, Rebecca Solnit

The Impossible Will Take A Little While, edited by Paul Loeb

Support Andre’s work

Andre’s Patreon: patreon.com/andrehenry

Andre’s merch: andrehenry.co

Listen

Transcript

Lisa Sharon Harper: [00:00:00] Coming to you from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, the city of brotherly love and sisterly affection. I’m Lisa Sharon Harper, president of Freedom Road, a consulting group dedicated to shrinking the narrative gap. Welcome to the Freedom Road Podcast. Each episode we speak with national faith leaders, advocates, and activists to have the kinds of conversations we normally have on the front lines. It’s just that this time we’ve got microphones in our faces, and you are listening in. 

So this episode, we are joined by Andre Henry, author of All the White Friends I Couldn’t Keep. Co-host of the Hope and Hard Pills podcast, local LA-based advocate and activist and singer, songwriter, producer. His work has been featured in the Nation, the New Yorker, New York’s Lincoln Center.

The Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts in [00:01:00] Washington, DC And hold onto your seats, my friends. The Super Bowl. What? Yes. Super Bowl 16. Yes. His work was featured there, and it was, it was a proud moment for me, uh, you know, Auntie Lisa for, for Andre. Watching, watching my little cousin, you know, my, my fake cousin go into the world and, and make a real, real splash.

It was beautiful and powerful. So I invited Andre, my homeboy, to speak with us today because he understands joy and he understands art. He understands the power of the arts to bring hope and vision and health, and we need some of that, do we not? So in these summer months, amid historic indictments and historic environmental hazards and political targeting of everybody who isn’t a white man.

We are gonna go into our, into our souls and actually have some fun. Okay? That’s what we’re doing. We’re doing the fun today, [00:02:00] so we’d love to hear your thoughts. Please tweet or insta me at @LisaSHarper or to Freedom Road @FreedomRoad.us. Um, and, uh, we’re also on CK and Patreon at Freedom Road. So keep sharing the podcast with your friends and networks and letting us know what you think.

Alright, so Andre, let’s dive in. First question, we always start with our stories. You know, we, we, we want people to understand who we are. We begin before we start dropping knowledge, right? So I wanted, I wanted to know first, can you share with us your story of realizing that you’re an artist? 

Andre Henry: Yeah. Um, well thanks for having me.

Um, first off, and I’ve always known that I was an artist. So, you know, when I, um, I come from a musical family. You know, my, my father is a reggae musician. He, um, was making reggae music in Jamaica at the same time as Bob Marley. They actually famously got kicked out of the studio. So the waiters and Bob Marley could get in there, like, get outta here.

You know, we, oh my God, what? So, [00:03:00] you know. Wow. So as a young boy, like I remember, like my father also, um, was very much involved with, um, keeping the cultural folk songs of Jamaica alive. He worked at a university in Jamaica, um, that dealt with music and all that kind of stuff. And so, You know, he, he made a conga drum for me when I was little.

He, he would write songs. He had a reggae, he was like the first reggae band in Atlanta where we grew up, you know? Huh. So I grew up around that. My sister was a dancer, a singer. She’s an actor now. You know, my, my brother, my older brother, he raps. And so, it was just always around me. And so, just even at a young age, I would, um, you know, I would draw, you know, uh, when I was, I remember I would constantly draw these lions sitting on thrones with crowns on their heads.

You know, the lion of As a young, [00:04:00] 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh my goodness.Wait, so real quickly, so your faith life was also something that came early for you, is that right? 

Andre Henry: Yeah, yeah. Really early on, you know, um, my grandma, you know, took me to church with her when I was young and I just took to it, you know, I was around seven or eight years old.

And then also because, you know, reggae music is very spiritual, you know, like, and I was surrounded by that, you know? You know, Bob Marley sings a lot, you know, from his Rastafarian, you know, faith, you know. Yeah. But yeah, you know, it’s like one love, one heart, you know? Everybody remembers the let’s get together and feel all right, but the next phrase is, give thanks and praise to the Lord and I will feel all right.

Right. That’s what was…

Lisa Sharon Harper: What! Oh my God, I never realized that before. What? 

Andre Henry: Thanks and praise to the Lord and I’ll feel alright. You know? So. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Wow. I never noticed that. 

Andre Henry: Yeah. You know, a lot of people don’t, so that was always kind of circling. So I remember. I just loved music, you know, just as a kid.[00:05:00] 

And I found out maybe when I was in fourth grade, that like Bob Marley got paid to make music. I didn’t know that. I didn’t really, I didn’t realize people got, that was like a job that someone could have. And when I learned that, I said, well, I want to do that. You know, like I wrote my first song when I was in second grade, but then around like fourth grade, I started writing more songs.

And that was just, I… that’s what I wanted to do with my life. And this was 

Lisa Sharon Harper: untrained, like you just started writing songs? Or did your dad, like, did your dad teach you kinda the, the craft?

Andre Henry: No, he didn’t. He didn’t teach me, you know, my older sister had a little Cassio keyboard and I used, 

Lisa Sharon Harper: oh my God! 

Andre Henry: play with it, you know, every day.

I just like, played with it. I didn’t even understand, but I could hear, you know, I was like, born with a good ear. No. So like, I could hear like these little harmonies and stuff. And so I think my dad just like walked in one day and he saw me playing the keyboard and he was just so excited, you know? And just so happy, you know, and my [00:06:00] father and my mother, they were always, my mother’s not living anymore, but, you know, they were always very encouraging for me, you know what I mean?

So, when my dad saw that I loved music, he just made music with me, you know, so he just, you know, if I’m playing chord, he’d play the drum or he’ll sing with me or whatever. And he’s still like that. When my sister got married a few years ago, before the ceremony, I saw a piano. And anytime I see a piano, I, I wanna play.

I sat down and I played, and I’m playing, um, Waiting In Vain by Bob Marley. That’s one of my favorite songs. But Marley first, uh, I mean, just a little tangent, he’s been a huge influence for me in general. So I know a ton of Bob Marley songs, so I sit down and play the piano, playing, uh, Waiting in Vain, and my dad just comes up to the piano.

He starts singing, you know? Um, and that’s just always been a thing for us. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: It’s beautiful. That is so beautiful.

Andre Henry: Yeah.Yeah. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh my God. [00:07:00] Thank you. I, so I can totally see it. And, and the honestly, like the, the father son. Relationship around. Song and music, I’m sure is something that kind of powers.

Your vision of wellness, your vision of wholeness 

Andre Henry: Absolutely. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: And what the world should be. It’s what I, one of the things that, um, I love about your work is that it’s visionary. You’re not just, you know, walking around angry. You actually literally call people to see what isn’t there and to see that another world is possible.

I love your, um, your saying that you’ve made into t-shirts. It doesn’t have to be this way. 

Andre Henry:  Yeah. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: But it strikes me that one of the reasons, you know, it doesn’t have to be this way, is because of the love that you experienced from your father. 

Andre Henry: Yeah. There’s so much in my family that I look at and I’m like, I know that, I [00:08:00] know that miracles are possible because of what has happened in family, you know?

And with some of the songs that we’ll talk about today. You know, some of that I recently, um, published. I don’t know, like, I, I think that. What I’ll say is that you, you know very well that, especially coming from the black diaspora, that we have endured so much inter intergenerational trauma.

Lisa Sharon Harper: Yes. 

Andre Henry: That some of that is just kind of normalized. Right. In our experiences growing up, you know, like how many times do we joke about like, did you get spanked as a child and all this other kind of stuff. You know, like that kind of stuff. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Right. 

Andre Henry: Is real. But I have seen real transformation in my family, you know?

Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh, wow. 

Andre Henry: And the people in my family, the men in my family in particular. Mm-hmm. And in some ways the men, some of the men in my family, my father’s a good example. You know, I think that I just got [00:09:00] a different picture of what we could be. Mm-hmm. Because. You know, nobody’s perfect. My dad’s not perfect. He’d be the first to tell you, you know?

Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah. 

Andre Henry: And there are plenty of times when we’re talking of like, oh dad, oh, Baba, I call him Baba. Right. And, um, so sweet. He, yeah. But one thing I can say is that he did embody a different type of masculinity to me growing up, you know, like, 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Wow. We’re gonna get into that. We’ll get into that a little bit later. 

Andre Henry: For sure.

Lisa Sharon Harper: I don’t want you to, I don’t, you know, I wanna save that because that’s, I really wanna get into that in the next segment. 

Can I, can I ask you, you know, the thing that, even out of what you’re just saying, there’s a lot of different ways that you could have gone in life, like a lot of different directions.

You are a writer. You are a podcaster. You have been a, a, a student of social movements. Yeah. Um, you were considering, if not already in a study, you know, a program of study around social movements. Um, why did you choose to go deep into the arts? I mean, it feels to me, yeah. Tell me if I’m, if [00:10:00] I’m wrong, but it’s, it feels to me like you made a decision maybe a year, maybe two years ago.

Um, where you said, I’m going to who I am. I’m going back to the core of who I am. I’m gonna live out of the core. And the core is you the artist. 

Andre Henry: Yeah. I think you’re right. You know that I made a decision and said, you know, like, I’m going back to the core of who I am. I love that. I love the way that you put that, because there are two things.

One was my experience on the streets as an activist. First off, I told myself when it was happening that I didn’t want to become a community organizer, right? Like I stumbled into doing that after we watched Philando Castile die on Facebook Live. Right?  

Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh wow. 

Andre Henry: Um, my first response was writing songs and really art.

You know, I painted this Boulder a hundred pound Boulder White. I wrote all over it, the things that weigh on the Black psyche. I dragged that around LA with me. [00:11:00] Cause I had visions, you know, about me doing 

 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Wow. A hundred pound boulder. Holy crap. I don’t think that really set in with me. I knew about the Boulder.

But I think I might have forgotten how heavy that was. 

Andre Henry: Yeah, it was, it was literally a hundred pounds. Wow. Um, I wrote the names of the dead on my, my suit jacket and walked around in mourning for them. You know, like, those were the kinds of things that I did at first, but then I found myself volunteering with Black Lives Matter and really pursuing the question of social change.

So I kind of stumbled into that, right? and in doing that, I saw so much toxicity in there. And I’m a very sensitive person, you know? 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah. You’re an artist. Yes. 

Andre Henry: Yeah. I’m very sensitive, and so I just started feeling like, I can’t do this. You know, I, I don’t know that I can be on the streets like this, you know, because it’s really, uh, painful for me.

The second thing [00:12:00] was I had been asking the question, what is the most direct contribution I can make to Black liberation. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: And lemme just say, I love your focus on I. Yeah. What is the most direction from direct contribution I can make. 

Andre Henry: Yeah. Yeah. 

Because that allows you to move from the core of who you are as opposed to trying to be something that you are not created to be.

Andre Henry: Absolutely. And so, because I didn’t, there was something I didn’t understand, and this is what brought me back into music. When I was asking what’s the most direct, um, contribution I can make? 

I was thinking very much about the flow of racist power. And what needs to happen to stop the flow of racist power.

And so that’s how I got really into non-violent struggle and studying non-violent struggle. And when I get into something, I go all in. I’m a very passionate 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Yes, you do. [00:13:00] 

Andre Henry: Next thing you know, like a few years later, like I’m in touch with the leading practitioners and scholars on non-violent struggle with living revolutionaries, who topple dictators in other countries.

I was gonna concern, you know? Right, right. But what I didn’t understand is what racism, not just racism, any type of oppression actually does to the human body on the cellular level. I didn’t understand that. And when I, I started reading this book called Black Fatigue, and I can’t remember the name of the author, but she was talking about these studies.

There was a 2020 study…

Lisa Sharon Harper: We’ll link to it, we’ll link to it in the show notes. 

Andre Henry: Wonderful. From Auburn University. That showed that the experience of oppression. Literally releases these stress, stress hormones in the body that cause sickness and disease, and even shortened the lifespans of people who are experiencing them.

[00:14:00] So racism. Yeah, it’s definitely, it’s structural and institutional. It’s personal, but it’s biological. It has a biological effect on us. And what counteracts that stress, you know, music. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Whoa, sorry that was long. But this is really like for real. Like that’s a real Whoa, whoa. 

Andre Henry: Yeah, yeah. Wow. So I realized in like that, when we say that, you know what, when we talk about what music does and what has the power to do, it used to just sound like people are being sentimental and you know, like not, I’m very much like, give me the facts.

You know? That’s why it was so much about non-violent struggle when you talk to about non-violent struggle. I was like, listen, the study, the numbers show it’s twice as effective as arm struggle. You know? That’s why I was, that’s right. That’s right. Yeah. So I couldn’t just do music and say, well, people say these things about music and therefore it’s good.

I needed to know. And that once I had data… [00:15:00] That, that was like, Anytime I make a black person smile, I have won a little victory against racism. 

Lisa Sharon Harper:Ooh. Wow. 

Andre Henry: And, and oppression. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: So this is your way of engaging the struggle. Yeah. It’s Oh Lord. 

Andre Henry: And, and wow. And you know what’s, I just wanna add two more things to that, right.

What started me down that path before I got the research was this guy named Pops, or his name isn’t Pops, but we call him Pops. At a music academy that I went to in Inglewood, where the top producers in the world, I mean, this is James Fontleroy Rance, um, LA Dobson, who they produce for Timberland, Justin Timberlake, Beyonce, Bruno, Mars, all, all these people.

Lisa Sharon Harper: Whoa. What? 

Andre Henry: Pop Pops is his dad. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh my God. 

Andre Henry: And Okay. And Pops just pops and I just hit it off like, cause he would be on the stage when I walk into the academy playing the piano and I know all these old classic soul music songs, you know? So yeah, he’ll play the [00:16:00] piano and I sit down and I play the bass or we’ll switch and I’ll play the piano and he’ll sing.

And I, and I think it was him where somebody told me, because I wanted to know, I was like, he’s too young to have been alive during Jim Crow, you know? But he was at the tail end of it, you know what I mean? 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh yeah. My mom, I mean that’s, I don’t know how old, how young he is or how old he is, but my mom was alive during Jim Crow.

My mom. Not my grandma, my mom. Yeah. You know what I mean? So that’s just, that’s the boomer generation.

Andre Henry: Yeah. So I asked him, I asked, I, I would ask him questions all the time. Mm-hmm. Like everyone else is trying to get Rance’s attention because he’s the one that produces Bruno Mars. But I want Pop’s attention cuz I wanna know.

How did you survive? How, when, when racism was more overt, all this kind of stuff. So I would ask him questions, so I’d be like, what did y’all do when y’all played Marvin Gaye? What’s going on? He’s like, dance.

Lisa Sharon Harper: but he said dance.

Andre Henry: Yeah, he’s like dancing. Which I, I really [00:17:00] wanted to know. So anyway, I bring up Pops because Pops had a realization that when he played music, it made people smile. And he just thought that was amazing and he wanted to keep doing that. And that really spoke to me. So I mean, that’s really that question of what’s the most direct intervention I realized I didn’t need to continue to be a scholar, or, which I, I still do read all the time, right?

It’s always gonna be a part of my life. I don’t need to be a community organizer. I don’t have to do all those things. And those things are good, and I’m glad that people are doing them right. What I’m gifted and talented to do and passionate about 

Lisa Sharon Harper: And built for! 

Andre Henry: And built for is actually enough.

Lisa Sharon Harper: Yes. Yes. Hey, can you sing for us the song that’s about going outside? Because it made me dance. I mean, no joke. When you, when you, when I first heard it [00:18:00] on Instagram, I think I heard you singing it on Instagram. Um, and it was just like, what? So, so like, I would seriously be listening to this, like, all the time on KISS FM and all the stations.

And then, um, when, uh, when something just recently came down and it was like really great news, I went to go make my own little, you know, Instagram reel. And it, that song, your song was at the top of the Instagram reels and I used it. People were like, I wrote this song. I was like, yes. Okay. So can you just play us out of this segment, like with that song?

Andre Henry: Sure. Let’s do it. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Fabulous. 

Andre Henry: Okay, we ready? Yep. All right, let’s go.

MAKE IT TO TOMORROW

By ANDRE HENRY

(Verse 1)

Sometimes I feel suicidal

But I know I don’t wanna’ die

It’s just another trial

So I’m hangin’ on to life by the grab bars

Hopin’ that the next stop’s

Far from the triggers that set me off

Every other night pilin up the bottles

Or I’m tryna’ make a pipe burn away my sorrow

Even hit the psilocybin

Dawg! I been fightin’ for tomorrow

Gotta’ make to tomorrow

(Hook)

I gotta’ make it to tomorrow

(Verse 2)

I’m bout’ to go outside

Get a little sunlight into my skin

Bout take a jog for the endorphins

It’s a sure thing

No! This depression won’t take out

Bout’ make a call to my closest friend

Get a laugh in

Hug myself in the mirror for minute

I’m tryin’

You know

Cause I

Wanna’ make it to tomorrow

(Hook)

I wanna’ make it to tomorrow

(Bridge)

I’m not afraid to say I’m not okay

I’m not ashamed at all

Cause one thing about me

I’ma overcome it

I’m not afraid to say I’m not okay

I been here before

But one thing about me

I’ve always overcome

And I know I’m gonna’ fly when I make to tomorrow,

When I make it tomorrow

(Final Hook)

Oh, one day at a time

I’mma make it to tomorrow

credits

released April 21, 2023

 

Producer(s): Andre Henry

Executive Producer: Justin Barbour, Nicole Lewis, Heidi Brandow

Synthesizers – Andre Henry

Drum Programming – Andre Henry

Lead Vocals – Andre Henry

BG Vox – Andre Henry

 

Lisa Sharon Harper: These are our stories. You’re listening to the Freedom Road Podcast, where we bring you stories from the front lines of the struggle for justice.

Wow. Andre. Oh my God, that was so great. My God, my voice is like the top of my face. Cause I’m so excited, so much for sharing that with us. [00:22:00] You know, you are a key leader. And the local organizing that rose up out of L in LA has really risen up. You said, um, you know, probably from like around, uh, 2015 

Andre Henry: Yeah.

Lisa Sharon Harper: Philando Castile. Right. Um, and then of course through George Floyd and yeah. All, all of the uprising that happened there. I mean, could you have imagined then that after the great push. Um, three years later we would be dealing with legislated banning of books and, you know, banning of AP African-American classes and rampant anti-trans legislation across the country.

Plus the Supreme Court is poised to rule right on the second of two voting rights cases. Thank God they actually upheld the first, um, upheld the, the Voting Rights Act in the first case that just went through. And then also though, they also have two affirmative action cases that they’re ruling on. Um, oh, right now, like literally this month.

Um, they’re gonna be passing down these rulings. And I’m just [00:23:00] wondering, I mean, that song that you closed us out with, I gotta make it to Tomorrow. Yes. Right. So I’m like, yes. That’s how I feel in the midst of this time. I just gotta make it to tomorrow. 

Yeah. 

Lisa Sharon Harper:  Right. So how, how have you been processing all of that?

Andre Henry: Yeah. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: I mean, all of the tings. All of the tings. 

Andre Henry: Yeah. Well, you know, it’s, I was, I, I’m not surprised necessarily because this is what happens right. In history. And I know that like when I first started learning more about racial history, the way that people talked about it was like one step forward, two steps back.

But the more that I read, um, especially like while I was writing my book, I was still studying and I was reading about imperialism, is that what we have are this, um, [00:24:00] rhythm, this rhythm of revolution and counter-revolution. Right. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh, wow. 

Andre Henry: Right. So, you know, and so. It’s still disappointing though.

It’s still discouraging. And I think probably the most discouraging thing for me was, like I mentioned, I was, um, you know, I was very involved in the uprisings in LA during 2020. And I saw so many people of goodwill, right? Show up on the streets, show up to Black Lives Matter meetings, ready to take direction, ready to organize, and all that kinda stuff.

And I think that what I saw on from my end, is that in our movements, our common sense has to change. Um, there is a spiritual transformation, a personal transformation that has to happen within us. [00:25:00] 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Yes. 

Andre Henry: Who have been harmed and had, and that, and that harm has brought, you know, a type of political awakening.

That’s good, but it’s not enough. Because what happens is, you know, we, a lot of times we carry that, the world we’re trying to fight is the same world that shaped us. That’s what I’m trying to say.

Lisa Sharon Harper: Right. You know? Yeah. I, I know exactly what you’re talking about. I have a friend who is Native American, um, uh, really organizer advocate activist.

She’s actually a state representative in north, North Dakota. And she introduced me to the language, which is actually very common in Native American, um, world of “lateral violence.” 

Andre Henry: Yes. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Lateral violence is what, what they call it, which is the, the violence that comes from the person who’s standing right next to you.

Andre Henry: Yes, yes. And I saw so much would be good movement work implode on the streets. I told this story in my book, but there was one that I thought was so [00:26:00] emblematic where I got invited to this, to this action, and I got there and I see them marching down the street. So I’m like, okay, that’s the action. And I was, but go join.

I saw my friend with megaphone and he’s leading some chants, and then I saw this other guy, a taller guy with a hat on, very stylish with his own megaphone. Trying to lead a different chant at the same time, and then, oh God, to actually start fist fighting with each other in the street. Right? 

Lisa Sharon Harper: No.

Andre Henry: And so I’m like, no. Yeah, yeah. LAPD doesn’t even need to show up to break up this action because Jesus care for ourselves. Right? Yeah. So that’s not the only part of why our, our movement, because there was a moment in 2020 when it felt like. This could change everything. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Yes. Yes. 

Andre Henry: When you see people all over the world throwing colonizer statues into the sea, when you see corporations feeling pressured to say, black Lives matter.

You know, like that was a moment. But I [00:27:00] saw so much movement work implode in LA for I think two reasons. I think one is because those of we, those of us who, I mean we, I shouldn’t say those of us, but we who have been shaped by this racist capitalist supremacist system, were doing the racist capitalist supremacist violence to one another in the movement.

Lisa Sharon Harper: Carrying the culture into the vision of the future. 

Andre Henry: Exactly. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Which of course then corrupts the vision of the future. 

Andre Henry: Exactly. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: And all you get is what you’ve had in the past. 

Andre Henry: Exactly. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: If that’s what you bring to the future. Hello.

Andre Henry: Exactly. And so you have people who are fighting over who gets the platform, who gets the megaphone, who gets the book deal, who gets to be the next Dr. King or Malcolm X, or Assata Shakur or whatever. Right. People gossiping and lying about each other. You know, people hiding behind whatever marginalized identity they have to avoid accountability and to, you know, like all that kind of stuff. And [00:28:00] that’s all under one umbrella. The second thing that I saw was a lack of interest on the part of people who had influence in these spaces to learn about previous successful campaigns and movements and to apply that.

So it’s very reactionary. All passion, you know, all that kind of thing. And that’s just where I’m coming from. So I expected that when you come up against the powers that be, they’re going to, you know what I mean? It does, it makes sense that they’re trying to ban books and stuff because what we experience or what we have been experiencing is political awakening.

The foundation of their power has been to miseducate the masses, and now the masses are waking up. So they’re saying, oh, we’ve gotta, we gotta get this information out of there. They wanna ban

Lisa Sharon Harper: Isn’t that something? Yes. Yeah.. It’s so strategic. It is not, this is not like irrational. Thing that just is like moving like wildfire throughout white communities.

This is a [00:29:00] strategic 

Andre Henry: Yes. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Logical, str, I can’t say strategic enough. Strategic, yes. Um, move in order to maintain power and 

Andre Henry: we have to be strategic and organized in order to really fight it effectively, right? Mm-hmm. And I’m not saying that there’s plenty of great organizers and activists out there doing the work.

Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah. Yeah. 

Andre Henry: That’s what I feel like I saw. So that is the discouraging part for the most discouraging part for me. And I still text people who were there with me in Pasadena and LA and sometimes we text each other and go, it felt like we were so close, you know? 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah. 

Andre Henry: It felt like we were so close, especially where we were because.

I built a library, you know, like an online library for people who were organizing with me to give everything that I’d learned from revolutionaries, I paid for trainings for people out of my own pocket, you know? To like train, how do you hold [00:30:00] space? How do you respond when, if there’s a live shooter situation or tear gas or whatever.

And that work was disrupted by another organizer because they didn’t, because it wasn’t them. They wanted to be the figurehead. They wanted people to follow them. And so they disrupted all that work. And I think that has been, that was disorienting. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: That grieves my heart.

Andre Henry: Oh yeah. It was disorienting.

Lisa Sharon Harper: Wow. So, yes, it was. 

Andre Henry: I get what you’re saying. Like when we look at what’s happening with, um, you know, the same people who supported the January 6th insurrection, still in office with New York. The sky turning orange and people still debating whether climate change is real or not with 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh my god, 

Andre Henry: the, the mass shooters every other week.

You know, I think 

Lisa Sharon Harper: every week, every day. Literally every day. 

Andre Henry: Yes. Yes. This is a [00:31:00] stressful environment to live in. Mm-hmm. And I think one of the things that’s most discouraging is knowing, like I always say that this is unnecessary, that it doesn’t have to be this way. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: That’s right. So that, that actually, it’s funny cuz that, that actually takes me back to our conversation in the first segment when you began to share about, you know, the way that you learned, it doesn’t have to be this way, it’s really through struggling through, um, the brokenness from family. 

Andre Henry: Mm-hmm. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: And the depression. 

Andre Henry: Mm-hmm. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: And, um, cuz you have struggled with depression openly. Yeah. And, and I just, I love how transparent you have been. Yeah. Because you have no idea how many people you have helped in the midst of… no joke.

…Of talking openly about your own struggle, and it makes sense right in the middle of this crazy world where you have hope one minute, and then the hope is actually dashed through lateral violence. 

Andre Henry: Yes. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Not through like the man, but [00:32:00] actually through the people. 

Andre Henry: Right. Exactly. Right. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: And, and then also the man, like, so, you know, even right now, right?

Like today, yesterday, last night, you know, for to, to kind of, um, give a timestamp on our conversation, which I think is important. I don’t always do that. Because we really, these are evergreen conversations, right? But this conversation is also happening in a really momentous context. It’s happening in the context of last night, Donald Trump being, uh, indicted on seven federal criminal counts the very first time.

And, uh, a former president of the United States has been federally, Um, indicted. Mm-hmm. Um, we have not heard the charges yet, but what we do know is that one of those, one of those charges is gonna be relate to the espionage act. Like what? Like, you know what I mean? Like, this is, this is some serious, like high crimes that are happening here, and it’s all very overwhelming.

Andre Henry: Yeah. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: I mean, it’s very overwhelming. So I guess my question to you is how have you navigated [00:33:00] all of the layers, all of the tings 

Andre Henry: Yeah.

Lisa Sharon Harper:  Um, you know, that have come your way, not only from lateral violence and violence coming from down, from the top, but also from the roots of your family experience. 

How have you navigated that? Um, so, such that you can hold onto hope, right? Like, hope you have this podcast, hope and hard pills, hope, like how do you, how do you hold onto hope in the midst of that? How have you found hope? 

Andre Henry: Yeah. You know, so there, yeah, there, there’s a couple layers to that, so, mm-hmm. Um, uh, I wanna talk about hope and resilience in response to that.

So, hope is something I discovered around 2017. Um, or a new or reframing around hope, right? Uh, because remember, I, my activism, it started with me carrying this boulder around [00:34:00] to tell people, people, this is what it feels like on my psyche, right? I look back on that moment now and realize I’ve always been talking about mental health, right?

And I’ve always been talking about emotions, right? 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Wow. 

Andre Henry: Even though I didn’t say it that way, but that’s what I literally would tell people, this is what it feels like, right? And so, a year after I’d started doing that, I found myself feeling very depressed. And a friend of mine in his name is Paul in Florida, sent me a book called Hope in the Dark by Rebecca Solnit.

Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh wow. 

Andre Henry: And that book, 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Everybody get that book!

Andre Henry:Yes. Oh my… It saved my life. Literally. It saved my life because I’ve always been a depressive, you know, like my mother, my mother sent me to a child counselor when I was little because she was worried about me. Yeah. You know, I was born with that. And I think some of that is intergenerational, right?

Lisa Sharon Harper: Mm-hmm. Can I also just say, I think a lot of that also is, it’s one of the byproducts of having the, [00:35:00] the soul of an artist. Yeah. Cause artists’ souls are open. They’re open and they receive everything. Right. Until we learn how to protect our soul. 

Andre Henry: Yes. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: In the midst of receiving. Yeah. 

Andre Henry: And also a part of that, like you’re saying, is kind of coming into the world with a tender soul, tender heart in that way.

And my family not understanding that. Right. Because they also have been socialized in a world that tells them, toughen up, man up, whatever else. Right. So, 

Lisa Sharon Harper: wow. Yeah. 

Andre Henry: There’s all of those layers going on in there, so. Mm-hmm. I mean, I was really feeling it. And I also feel, I also feel I have, I have high empathy for people too, so like when…

You know, and also these, these police killings are acts of terror, like the spectacle of them. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: That’s right. 

Andre Henry: Is, is a culture, an atmosphere of terrorism. So I was low and Paul just took it upon himself to have an intervention. He said, what’s your address? He sent me this book and I read it. And there’s [00:36:00] something in there that Rebecca Solnit said that it stays with me to this day.

She says that hope is not optimism. That because the optimists tell themselves everything will be all right regardless of what happens. And pessimists tell themselves everything will be bad regardless of what happens. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Wow. 

Andre Henry: And both of these groups exclude, uh, excuse themselves from acting. Wow. But hope is literally about an uncertainty about the future.

The future is unwritten, right? You don’t know what will happen tomorrow. But if you act, it could be different, you know? 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh my God. Yeah. 

Andre Henry: Right. And so that reframe 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Hope is a verb. 

Andre Henry: Yes. Right. Exactly. A, a practice, a discipline, a habit. Right. [00:37:00] And that reframed my understanding of hope since then. And so what I started doing since then was literally looking for hope, literally pursuing it.

So like, I would buy, I always buy books from people who are, who have done this kind of work or have, you know, dared to, um, you stand up to oppression or whatever, or to thrive under oppression. And I read those, you know? 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Mm. Mm-hmm. 

Andre Henry: Um, one of, one of my favorite is called, uh, the Impossible Will Take a Little While, which is a series of essays.

Uh, from everyone from, you know, Nelson Mandela to Cornell West and others. Right. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Wow. 

Andre Henry: Wonderful book. 50 essays. Rosa Parks has, you know, I think has a essay in there as well. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Wow, okay. 

Andre Henry: You know, and I, I, I feed myself things like that. I feed myself stories because hope is based on, I feel like hope is, hope has to have grounds, right?[00:38:00] 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Yes. It’s rooted. It doesn’t, it it’s not based in the theoretical, right. The ethereal, even the vision of the future. Right. It’s, it’s based in, um, the feet on the ground moving forward. 

Andre Henry: And so, exactly. And so there’s a connection here for me is that hope and imagination are both based on memory. Right?

And so I think, so stories, you know, that remind me that. Ordinary people have fought these things before and won, like the story that I tell all the time about these ordinary women who the Nazis had abducted their husbands, and these women went and got them back, you know? 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Wow. 

Andre Henry: Non violently at that.

They went back, they, it was 1945 in Berlin. These women just confronted these Nazi soldiers who had taken, their husbands refused to leave. And when the Nazi said, if y’all don’t leave right now, we’re going to, we’re gonna open fire on you. They just started shouting, [00:39:00] “Murderers, murderers, murderers,” 200 women and the Nazis 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Wow.

Andre Henry: Dropped their guns and gave them back, and so, 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh my God! 

Andre Henry: But the, the thing about that is that like, imagine. So that’s hope is based on memory, but you realize if you, if, if that can, if that happened, then it can happen, right? The imagination is also based on memory. I remember when I was in church, 

Lisa Sharon Harper: That’s so good.

Andre Henry: This pastor said, I want you to draw an alien, but it can’t look like anything that we’ve ever seen. And we couldn’t. Everyone just drew a blob and it, the, the example was the, the, the lesson was your imagination is based on what you’ve seen. So that idea of 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Wow! So good!

Andre Henry: Doesn’t have to be this way. The idea that it doesn’t have to be this way is about imagination, which I think is what artists and creatives and stuff, you know, like that we, we live in that world, but the imagination is based on that memory.

So that’s the hope. But lately I’ve been really having to learn and [00:40:00] embrace resilience. That’s kind of like my focus word. It’s coming into focus for my life because… I’m having to accept that… That we do have to be resilient, right? And I say it that way because when I started, uh, writing, shifting my music toward, uh, you know, social issues in 2016, I just wanted things to change. I don’t want to have to rise to the, to, to the occasion to be able to overcome these conditions because these conditions should not exist as such. Right? 

And so I kind of ignored resilience, especially because, get this, as I’m doing this and I’m looking about focusing my work on this and understanding that music helps us be resilient.

I went and looked up what are the top resilience blogs in the world. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Huh? 

Andre Henry: Okay. [00:41:00] None of them by black people. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh, wow. 

Andre Henry: None of them, there are no, most of them are white, but I said, no, no black people. Because there is a Zen resilience blog that is done by a man who I believe is of Asian descent. Wow. So anyway, and I hear people in the movement say things like that, don’t call me resilient.

And I get what they’re saying. Don’t call me resilient.

Lisa Sharon Harper: Let me just say that it also, it’s important to say that, it’s not to say that there are no black people who have resilience blogs. Mm-hmm. It’s that they were not among the top ones. 

Andre Henry: Exactly. That’s exactly what I’m saying. They’re not in the top. So that’s, that’s kind of where I was.

And so, because I was like that, uh, in the beginning where I just wanted things to change and I was focusing on the structural, the political, all of that, I think that’s partly why I burned out so, so easily was because, the fact of the [00:42:00] matter is, From a grand view of things, even if racial injustice didn’t exist, the fact that we live on this planet means we face adversity.

Right. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Period. We’re in life.Yes. 

Andre Henry: Yes. Life has its challenges. I think about us being animals a lot when I think about this and I think, huh. Most animals actually spend a lot of their time trying not to get eaten every day. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh my God. That’s why my dog is so loud. That’s right. Barks at every little thing on the street.

She’s programmed. She’s programmed to survive. That is like, that helps me. 

Andre Henry: If I, if I were a fly or, or a bird or something like that. Like I would spend most of my day

Lisa Sharon Harper:  Trying to survive! 

Andre Henry: Yeah. Trying to survive. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh my gosh. Wow. 

Andre Henry: So as animals, like we have adversity in life that we have to face. Yeah. And, um, so in learning to embrace [00:43:00] resilience, like I started therapy four years ago because of racial stress.

Um, my therapist and I work together. And what I love about the way my therapist works for me is that we’re always talking about tools, right. How to regulate, how to take care of our bodies, all that kind of thing. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Andre, could you sing your song for us? I think it’s called Circle. 

Andre Henry: Yeah, the Circle.

Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh, very cool. The circle. 

Andre Henry: Um, so this is kind of, I, I guess if I were going off of what I was saying mm-hmm. I would say like, I needed something to ground me again, you know, because of all the lateral violence, all that kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. And really, man, there’s some, there’s something she can say, but, but coming back, Tori, I wrote this song about an experience I had with an ex who physically attacked me.

Lisa Sharon Harper:Oh. Oh, wow. 

Andre Henry: She was a bully. You know. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Wow. Talk about lateral violence. My goodness. 

Andre Henry: Yes. She was a bully [00:44:00] in so many ways, you know? Wow. Um, and I remember somebody saying to me about a story, another story that I told about abuse. Mm-hmm. They said, because I didn’t wanna call the person an abuser. The person said to me, Andre, Abuse exists because there are abusers.

A white woman said that, right? And I just, I just couldn’t accept that because like we said earlier, you know about the intergenerational thing. My, my mother was the sweetest person I ever knew, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. At the same time, she was an authoritarian, you know? 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh, wow. She was a bully. 

Andre Henry: She, she, she beat us.

She, she spanked us. She would insult us, all that kind of stuff. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: My goodness. And then you’re attracted to that. Right. Because you don’t know. That’s not love. 

Andre Henry: But [00:45:00] I, I, I don’t think of my mother as an abuser because honestly, that wasn’t the main, that wasn’t the main characteristic of our relationship.

Even though it was a part of it. Her husband was a bully or is a bully, you know? Um, even though he doesn’t yell, you know, but he picks on people the way that he harasses the men in our family, you know? Or did, because he had a heart to heart with my older brother who actually got through to him, and now he’s talking about going to, going to therapy at 70 years old, right?

My grandmother was the meanest Christian I ever met, you know? She would literally call people stupid and all that kind of thing. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Wow. 

Andre Henry: She would also give you the shirt off her back. Right. Her husband was a bully. Abandoned her. She, he disappeared one day, you know? Um, and she and my [00:46:00] grandmother used to beat my mother every day.

Just… 

Lisa Sharon Harper: My god. Just so, so you really are, you’re like really diving into intergenerational trauma. Hand it down, generation after generation, after generation. And you are not alone. Honestly, we all have these stories. Yes. But most of us haven’t gone into it. How you have, 

Andre Henry: But look at this. Yes, my mother was a bully.

She was also bullied. My grandmother was a bully. She was also bullied. Yes. My grandfather was a bully. He was also bullied. You get what I’m saying? 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah. Very, very much. 

Andre Henry: I just couldn’t accept someone saying, There’s abuse because there are abusers. You know, because my mother is not an abuser, you know?

Even though she could be abusive, you know? 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah. Yeah. 

Andre Henry: My, my brother, we have a miraculous story. Someone should make a film about this one day, you know, if [00:47:00] I could write screenplay, because he was my biggest bully growing up. Huh. And one day we talked about it as adults. We have a long story of how we were able to have this conversation, but we talked about it as adults.

And I said, Chris, I just feel like you were a bully. And he looked at me and his voice got really low, and he said, I know. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh, wow. 

Andre Henry: He’s just said, I know it’s one of the, I can only count, count this kind of moment on one hand. Mm-hmm. In my life. But him just saying I know mm-hmm. Was like, I. The affirmation I needed, right?

To let it go. And once he admitted that, you know, uh, first off, I held up my hand. I had out a pinkie. I said, okay, you and I are gonna write a new story today. We’re gonna tell our story differently. Right? I, I, he gave me his pinkie and I said, I want you to promise me that from now on, we talk about the [00:48:00] story is that you were my guardian angel.

Because I asked him before we did this, tell me about a time you were my guardian angel but I didn’t know it. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh, wow. 

Andre Henry: And he told me about one time in elementary school I had mouthed off to somebody because I have a mouth. Oh my gosh. And they wanted to beat me up and I didn’t know. And he fought them.

But I never knew. Do you know that for years he carried resentment for the way that he stood up for me, but I never knew. And so he was resentful because I wasn’t grateful for something I didn’t even know that happened. Right? And, um, little did I know that every day my mom was threatening to kick him out of the house for little things about chores and stuff like that.

So, again, bully and bullied, right? So anyway, I think I can tie this in a bow in, in this way, and it ties in with “The Circle,” is that in the movement, I, [00:49:00] I started encountering a lot of binary thinking that there are good people and there are bad people, right? They’re the good guys and they’re the bad guys.

And it even started. I started being affected by it when people started basically saying like, Andre is, Andre is bad because he’s a man. Andre is toxic because he’s a man. Anything that I tell you about Andre that might be bad, you can probably believe because he’s a man. Right? 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Wow. 

Andre Henry: Um, and I looked in my family and saw people that caused real harm to other people in our family, but learned, right?

And changed and evolved and grew. Mm-hmm. And, um, I wrote the circle because I wanted to reclaim my humanity in one way, you know, in some way. Because I noticed that people would talk about me as though, because [00:50:00] they perceive me as a man. Uh, that I haven’t. Encountered certain things, I haven’t endured certain things, right?

And then I felt like at the same time as me sharing that story, I also need to challenge the idea that you’re one or the other. So I talk about my own toxic behavior, you know? And, uh, so that’s where “The Circle” came from. And I think that it goes in with two things. One is understanding that we need to not forget that we all have work to do, right?

And not lose, not become the thing that we’re fighting, first off you. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah. 

Andre Henry: Um, and also with the resilience piece of, I realized that I have to expand my window of tolerance in the world in general, right? Or the adversity that we face in life for the systemic injustices that will not change to tomorrow.

[00:51:00] And for people who. In some way are more problematic than I would like, you know? 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Wow. So can we hear it? Can we hear “The Circle”? 

Andre Henry: Sure. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Okay, awesome. Thank you. And I, I just wanna acknowledge, I mean, it’s a vulnerable topic that you’re talking about right now, and I can imagine the song itself is vulnerable cuz you know, I think I read somewhere somebody said, um, don’t, I think it might have been Tina Turner who said, don’t even write a song unless you are willing to bring your guts out to the outside.

Like willing to reach down into your guts and bring them out for everybody to see. 

Andre Henry: So yeah, that’s, that’s, and that’s exactly what I’m trying to do with the music is, I believe that all of our stories are actually a story about the society we live in, right? And so, so here we go. Okay.

Lisa Sharon Harper: Okay. Thank you.[00:52:00] 

Andre Henry: 

The Circle, by Andre Henry

You finally wore that white dress every girl wants to wear. 

You felt that life-changing kiss 

a dazzling rock on your hand 

and I’m so happy for you. 

I really do wish you well. 

I only hope you treat him better than me. 

Hope he never knows what your palm feels like laying on his throat, 

no one else inside. 

Yeah, I know you didn’t think that through.

And I’m not mad. 

I just hope you’re not a person who would still do that. 

I know wounded people wound

and hurt people hurt. 

Passing the [00:53:00] pain in endless circle.

 I know wounded people would and hurt people hurt 

‘til we break the circle. 

We gotta break the circle. 

I know somebody out there could sing a song about me, 

about how toxic I was 

though in a different key 

if I could go back in time 

knowing the things I know now.

I’d clear the score the body keeps

Make sure we never meet. 

I’ve gotta believe deep my heart

Everyone is more, than the worst they’ve done. 

Please know that I forgiven you 

because I know that I [00:54:00] need someone’s forgiveness too 

I know wounded people wound and hurt people hurt. 

Passing the pain in an endless circle. 

I know wounded people and hurt people hurt 

‘til we break the circle 

We’ve gotta break the circle.

No, I’m not trying to make excuses for any of the bruises 

I picked up from loving you too long

I can only hope you’re healing cause I know the feeling

Of being scarred and leaving scars[00:55:00] 

I know wounded people wound and hurt people hurt. 

Passing the pain and endless circle 

I know wounded people and hurt people hurt 

‘til we break the circle. 

We gotta break the circle. 

Oh

we gotta break the circle. We gotta break the circle.

Na, na, na

We gotta break the circle. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Walking Freedom Road from [00:56:00] coast to coast and around the globe. This is the Freedom Road podcast.

Wow, Andre. Oh my gosh, brother, you have, you have really taken us on a journey in this conversation. Oh, that song. I love that song. “The Circle.” My God. Okay, so, all right. Lemme just say, I’m really, really glad that God didn’t take you into the Academy. Oh. You know, and I’m really, really glad that, that God didn’t just make you a podcaster, though nothing against podcasting since I’m doing it, but holy Jesus, like you really, really were created as an artist.

You really, really were. And I just love your music. 

Andre Henry: Thank you. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Um, you know, yeah. And I have to tell you, I mean, so I recently went to a concert by John Legend when he came to Philadelphia with his latest, um, LP and, um, uh, do they call it lp? It’s the album, [00:57:00] his latest album. So, okay. I don’t know. I’m trying to be all like in the biz.

Andre Henry: So you’re doing a good job. There’s definitely an LP. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh, good. Okay, good. I’ll, I’ll, I’ll continue to fake it like that. So, so, but one of the things that I was really, it struck me when I was listening to him, cuz I never thought of this before, but like all of his songs are about, Love and romance.

Like he is a, he is all about the romance. He is like, I am here to help you love and love better, and love deep, right. In every possible way. Yes, yes, yes. And so, you know, when I think about him, I think about how mature his music is. He, you know, he went to UPenn, um, right here in Philly. So of course it felt like coming home when he was at the concert and all.

And it actually was not, it was, wasn’t a huge stadium, it was actually a more intimate space, which is kind of fun. Um, but I wonder, as you discover your musical voice, what do you want your music to be about? Like when you, [00:58:00] people, when they, when they talk about your music, what do you want them to, to hear?

Andre Henry: Resilience, you know, um, I know that like, and I had these conversations, so I’ve. You know, I’ve had mentors that are iconic singer songwriters, you know? Ashford Simpson, Desmond Child, you know, who wrote Living on a Prayer for Bon Jovi and those kinds of folks. And having a conversation with Desmond when I was younger, this was maybe 10 years ago.

And, um, he played Frank Ocean for me. Cause I played some new songs for him. Mm-hmm. Now, I’ve always, because remember, I come from a Jamaican family, and Jamaican music is political, you know, like, it’s everything. Jamaican music is everything but Jamaican. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Right. 

Andre Henry: Jamaican music has never been shy about talking about politics.

Lisa Sharon Harper: Wow. 

It’s so powerful on the island that when politicians want to get elected, they try to find artists who will support them, you know? Huh. So, like I always had a bit of that. You know, the, the first song I ever wrote was called Oppression. Right. And it told the story of black [00:59:00] people for as much as I knew from being from the shores of Africa to the present day, right.

When I was young. So, anyway. That’s always been a part of it. So I, I’d say that for context, when I talked to Desmond, because Desmond listened to my music and at that time, and he said he played Frank Ocean for me. He said, you need to be doing this. You need to like be making all this music that people wanna go to bed to and stuff.

And no shade to anybody that does that. But I just feel like we have enough black artists that are singing about sex. You know? That’s for real. Okay. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: And lemme say nobody can do it like that Teddy Pendegrass, right? Like that. 

Andre Henry: You know? And there’s nothing and there’s nothing wrong with that, right? Like, it’s great, but I don’t feel like I want to contribute to just the sexualization of black people in that way.

The commodification of black bodies in that way. And it’s taken me a long time. But with this ep, like you’re hearing both, all these songs are from the EP just released, “Make it to Tomorrow.” And I feel like I found the [01:00:00] voice to, to, to sing about resilience because I thought about, and I said, What black male artist is out there making music about mental health, you know?

Lisa Sharon Harper: Mm. Wow. 

Andre Henry: You know, like, that’s their thing. That’s their thing. Right, right. I don’t think there is one.

Lisa Sharon Harper: You know, and quite honestly what you were saying earlier that like the top podcasts that are about resilience, none of them are by black people. Um, and, and yet we are actually the people who probably need it the most or among the most, maybe next to Native Americans in the United States, you know, like, and we are being directly targeted right now.

So this is the moment, you know, this is that, that kairos pregnant moment. This is the need. 

Andre Henry: And I wanna add to, to what you just said, that I brought that up to say, um, I think a part of that is because, The, the voices that often dominate these conversations about resilience and mental health do it from a [01:01:00] capitalistic perspective, so it’s always rising to the conditions that should not be anyway.

Or, and it’s like a spiritual bypassing thing, right? Like, they don’t want to talk about the fact that we feel what we feel because of the conditions we are subjected to. Right? Yeah. And um, what really pulled it together for me was my recent trip to South Africa, um, at Robben Island. Yes. On the way back from Robben Island, where, you know, these political prisoners were held.

They were just playing clips of folks who had been incarcerated there talking about what they did, so that, uh, the experience in Robben Island Prison would not completely break their spirit, right? And what struck me was they kept talking about, their refusal to be broken in spirit in Robben Island as a victory against empire.[01:02:00] 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Yes, that’s right. Uh, let me just say, I stood at the edge of the lime quarry, which I’m sure you visited. 

Andre Henry: Yes, yes. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: And it struck me there. That what they were doing because they, you know, they, they were exercising resistance and resilience even in the lime quarry. Yes. Where they had to move rocks back and forth every day and cut rock 

Andre Henry: For no reason.

Lisa Sharon Harper: Same rock. There are no reasons. And actually the rocks they cut, there were the same rocks that, that repaired and built the prison. They were, they were, you know, imprisoned in. So it was like really horrible work. Yes. Um, and yet it was also the space where they, it was like the University of the Movement.

It was a place where they taught young men to read. Um, and other places. And it struck me then that the anti-apartheid movement was actually not just an anti-apartheid movement. It was a movement against dehumanization. 

Andre Henry: Exactly. Right. One quote that stood out to me on the way back was, I can’t remember the, the, the, the man’s, but he, he said, [01:03:00] he said that the oppressor always loses.

Because the human spirit is like water and it always finds a way around oppression. And so for me, that solidified something for me because here I’m hearing black people, freedom fighters, talk about the importance of resilience, right? Of spiritual work under these conditions, which is something that I don’t hear a lot of.

There’s something different when you hear, because I, this was one quote actually, where one prisoner said, you know, your suffering, the level of your suffering is affected by. Uh, how you frame this experience. Here’s someone imprisoned for fighting for black freedom saying that, and that just hits different than Tony Robbins saying it for me.

You know? 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah. Yeah. 

Andre Henry: And so that’s what I want my music to be about. I want it to be about [01:04:00] resilience, you know? And I realized, you know, I wrote a lot of songs about police brutality, about racism and stuff. And I realized, here’s a funny one, is that Propaganda is actually on one of my remixes of one of these songs from a few years ago.

Lisa Sharon Harper: Wow. 

Andre Henry: And neither, neither of us wanna listen to that know, oh my God. Because it is triggering and we know it’s re-traumatizing. So, like I said before, that like anything that makes black people feel a little bit better Right. Is a little victory against racism. Mm-hmm. And so that’s what I wanna do, you know, is this resilience music, this music that helps people to, you know, process their emotions.

You know, but, but especially the, the, the direct intervention against the stress of living under the conditions on the cellular level. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Hmm. You know, just now this is a little bit of an aside. I know that, and this is not for the tape, but we had [01:05:00] planned on ending on soft. Yeah. And the thing that’s striking me is I think maybe the next, maybe the thing we really do need to end on is the hope.

Um, what was the, you said that there was another song that was this way. Yeah. It doesn’t have to be this way. That maybe we just end on that. Yeah. And do, do you have the ability to, to sing that one or did you need to? Oh yeah. Okay, great. This has been so good. I mean, I think that one of the things that we don’t, this is the first time I think that I’ve ever had anybody sing live on the podcast.

And I think, you know, I remember back I. In college, but also sometimes in a movement too. We would all be sitting around a campfire and somebody would bring out the guitar and we’d just have a jam session. And those literally were some of the most life-giving moments. And honestly, I haven’t had that in a long time.

Yeah. And so I wanted, as I thought about, what do we need right now? What do we need right now in the middle of two indictments, like, you know what I mean? What do I, we need right now in the middle of, of the cray cray that is really erupting all over the country. We [01:06:00] need music. Little did I know that music actually heals us, heals our bodies, you know?

So I pray that, that that’s the impact of our conversation and time today. 

Andre Henry: Me too. And you know, it brings up, this is a conversation in some movement spaces right now, actually. There was an article published by Paul Engler a few months ago, and his brother Mark, I believe, actually contributed to it too.

And it’s about song culture and movements. Yeah. And they’re saying our, our movements need to start singing again. Um, yeah. Because we don’t have a lot of those, you know, um, newer songs, right. For That’s right. That, and a, a lot of people aren’t, aren’t teaching the older ones. And when you think, and like when you read, uh, Dr. King’s Why We Can’t Wait for instance, right? Yeah. It’s the whole section where he talks about the role of the Freedom Songs in the movement, how they were the heartbeat, the backbone of the movement. You know, when the police are carting people off the jail and they’re singing, I ain’t gonna Let Nobody [01:07:00] Turn me around, you know?

That does something. So, yes. Absolutely. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: So, so can we, can we, can you sing us out? Um, can you share with us. A song that is kind of for you? Emblematic of this resilience? 

Andre Henry: Yes. This is one of my favorites. It’s called, it doesn’t have to be this way, it’s actually the remake. It doesn’t have to be this way.

Oh, fun. And, um, it’s a reggae song. So let’s do it. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: Hey Reggae! Okay. We gonna party our way out. 

Andre Henry: Oh no, that’s not it. This is it.

It Doesn’t Have to be this Way (Remix) By Andre Henry

(Intro)

Bless up di whole a di people dem weh seek truth and justice

hope’ and power wi a deal wit

Fi mashup Babylon system

Dem cya’ conquer wi

Yuh done know

(Verse 1)

Five hundred sneakers stomp on the pavement

All of their fists clenched tight in the air

Cardboard and banners wavin’

Hear the sirens wailin’

Five hundred voices shouting for change

Sayin’

(Pre-Chorus)

If all lives to matter to us

Tell me why some

Sleep on the street at night

If all lives to matter

Why do the bombs fly (Why?)

If everyone has their worth

And love is what we deserve

Why do they keep their knee on our necks?

All I gotta’ say is…

(Chorus)

It doesn’t have to be this way

it doesn’t have to be (No)

It doesn’t have to be (No, no)

I know! We have the power to change it

It doesn’t have to be (No)

Doesn’t have to be (No)

(Verse 2)

We are like gods and don’t even know it

Whatever we do becomes history

They may have the guns but we got the poets

The future will be whatever we sing

(Pre-Chorus)

And we refuse to accept

Whatever’s left after the 1% eats

Di worl’ belong to wi

As much as anyone else

Everyone has their worth

And love is what we deserve

You bout to get your knee off my neck

All I gotta’ say is…

(Chorus)

It doesn’t have to be this way

it doesn’t have to be (No)

It doesn’t have to be (No, no)

I know! We have the power to change it

It doesn’t have to be (No)

Doesn’t have to be (No)

Credits

from It Doesn’t Have to Be This Way (Deluxe Single), released June 19, 2021

Lyrics, Track, and Production by Andre Henry

Mixed by Ryan Lipman

Mastered by Pete Lyman

Lisa Sharon Harper: Come on now. Come with it. The conversations that leaders [01:10:00] have on the road to justice, this is the Freedom Road podcast.

Thank you for joining us today. The Freedom Road Podcast is recorded in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and wherever our guests lay their heads at night. This episode was engineered and edited and produced by Corey Nathan of Scan Media. Freedom Road Podcast is executive produced by Freedom Road, LLC. We consult, coach, train and design experiences that bring common understanding, common commitment, and lead to common action.

You can find out more about our work at our website, freedom road.us saying no by signing up for updates on our substack, which is where you’ll find our newsletter. We put out about two newsletters per month. Um, and they have all the different things, all of the things that are happening on Freedom Road. So we promise we will not fill your inbox.

And so we invite you to listen [01:11:00] again and also check out the special Patreon and also Substack conversations behind the scenes on Freedom Road. And Andre has a Patreon as well. And I wanna make sure that we, we know how we can support Andre’s work. So Andre, how do people find you on Patreon? 

Andre Henry: Yeah, for sure. Um, patreon.com/andrehenry

And, um, you know, that’s a great way for people to support what I’m doing. Um, it, I’m, I realized and I asked a friend of mine the other day, I said, do I make this look easy? And he said, yes, you make it look very easy. 

Lisa Sharon Harper: You do. But I know there’s a ton of work that goes in behind the scenes for you.

Andre Henry: Yeah. Music is expensive to make. I wish it weren’t so expensive to make. So that is very, you know, Cool. So, you know, people who resonate with that vision of creating music for resilience. You know, intervening against, you know, the stress of living under these conditions. You know, that’s one way that people can make a direct intervention [01:12:00] against that kind of thing.

And then of course, like, um, I have a store on my website, andrehenry.co. You know, if someone’s like, I don’t know if I can do something every month, listen, when you buy a t-shirt, a coffee mug, something like that, you know all of that

Lisa Sharon Harper: For a song. Hello? 

Andre Henry: Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yeah. All those things contribute to making the work happen.

Lisa Sharon Harper: Amen.