In this Episode:
God was whispering and showing me little ways of just, “I see you and here’s a little bit of space, a little bit of room that’s filled with boundless grace.” It’s just a page, but within that page is boundless possibilities. And you’re allowed to take that time to just be still and just breathe.
You are only just beginning as this idea of we’re just getting started. We’re just getting started. Let me not lose hope.
And that opened my eyes to a lot of other little moments of just recognizing that if all I have to offer and give, it’s just something small, maybe that’s enough.
When I start to worry how to make the most of my time, and when I fear my dreams don’t mean anything, I look back at how far I have come and I am reminded that I myself am the dream. –Morgan Harper Nichols
In this episode, we are joined by popular poet and artist, Morgan Harper Nichols.
We invited Morgan to speak with us today, because her poetry and art are forces for healing in the world. And we need some healing right about now.
We’d love to hear your thoughts. Tweet to Lisa @LisaSHarper or to Freedom Road @FREEDOMROADUS. We’re also on Substack! So be sure to subscribe to Freedom Road and Lisa’s column The Truth Is… And, keep sharing the podcast with your friends and networks and letting us know what you think!
www.morganharpernicholsart.com
www.instagram.com/morganharpernichols
twitter.com/lisasharper
twitter.com/FreedomRoadus
lisasharonharper.substack.com/
Mentioned:
Tony Morrison: The Source of Self Regard
Anne Lamont, Bird by Bird
Transcript:
Harper: [00:00:00] Coming to you from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, the city of brotherly love and sisterly affection. I’m Lisa Sharon Harper, president of Freedom Road, a consulting group dedicated to shrinking the narrative gap. Welcome to the Freedom Road Podcast. Now, each month we speak with national faith leaders, advocates, and activists to have the kinds of conversations that we normally have on the front lines.
This time we’ve got microphones in our faces and you are listening in. And this month, oh my gosh, like you guys, I get so excited every single month because we really do have amazing people every single month. But right now, this time we have Morgan Harper Nichols with us, and I invited Morgan to speak with us today because her poetry and her art are forces for healing in our world [00:01:00] today.
And don’t we need some healing? We need some healing, don’t we? We need some healing. Yes, we do. Um, and our world right now is in a major transition. It’s writhing in many respects, and I think a lot of people are facing the future with fear and trepidation. And, and Morgan’s last book, You Are Only Just Beginning, is, I mean, it really is chock full of wisdom in the form of poetry, um, and artwork that soothes the soul. So, I asked her to come and speak with us today to share with us some of that wisdom that she poured out in this book. We would love to hear your thoughts, so tweet or insta me@lisasharper, or to Freedom Road at @freedomroad.us, and keep sharing the podcast with your friends.
Y’all, I mean, our audience is growing and it’s so exciting, and we just want you to, to let us know what you think. So go ahead and let us know, you know, so let’s dive in. Morgan, first, can you just tell us a little bit about your faith journey? [00:02:00] Like how, how have you been walking through the world as a woman of faith?
How’d that happen?
Nichols: Yes. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I’m so honored to be here. I grew up in the south in Atlanta, Georgia. My parents are pastors, so I grew up as a preacher’s kid. And for me, I had a very early encounter with God that really just, it set the tone honestly my life. And that was, we were around age 6, 7, 8, somewhere in there. We went to the Grand Canyon and we were on a road trip. And, uh, my, my family, my, I think we’re going out, uh, I was born in California. My dad’s family’s from in California. He’s also child of a preacher. He was [00:03:00] going out to, to preach and I almost audibly heard God say to me, yeah, I’m going to speak to you in color and on that same trip, we went and we got to California. I, I used to always, I used to always, like, during church, I always had to be doing something. Like I, I couldn’t just sit there and yeah, like I just always my, I’m, I’m that way now. I’ve always got something nearby, like I gotta be fidgeting with something.
So I used to just doodle the entire time during church and
Harper: Oh, wow.
Nichols: Back at my, my home church in Georgia, that was normal, but quickly learned that as some churches know, like, sit there, listen, you know, like why is this kid doodling the entire time? And thankfully my parents let me have that freedom to do that.
And that same day, [00:04:00] uh, my dad preaching in California, I went and I show him my drawings. And I guess I was, I was always just like, well, you know, I think someone had said like, oh, why are you drawing? I’m like, why? I’m gonna show my dad. Like, I’m, I’m proud of my little drawing. This is good. Y’all look at, look at this.
Yeah. Yeah. So, and my dad, he just looked at it and he said, you know what? He was like, God is giving you art. And he was like, heart, he and art, heart. And that’s all I remember him saying. And I was just like, oh yeah, cool. All right. Guess that’s what I’m doing. Um, and for me,
Harper: Wow!
Nichols: it was just, on one side of it, it was, it was very beautiful.
But then there’s this other side of it, which it was like, people really have an expectation as you get older to be very serious about your faith in a certain kind of way. And I remember times as a kid, literally making art, and it got worse the [00:05:00] older I got. Oh my. And, and I would be in these settings where I was just like, this is just this that I’ve made.
Whether it was a song, a painting, like this is a prayer for me. And hearing like leaders say, no, but we need you to be more serious about it because it’s, you know, it’s not about art. And thankfully I didn’t get that at home. Cause I, I’m, I really think that if my parents had not encouraged me, I don’t know what would’ve happened.
Because, I mean, art really did, and, and still is, was, was how I felt so close to God. And. It was just, it, it’s interesting cuz it, for me, I, I I thought it was like a very non-controversial thing, but I’ve gone through…
Harper: Now, now, you know,
Nichols: I won’t spend all day on it, but I’ve been through a lot of scenarios of creating, I created a, a, a blog at one point in my twenties where I was just like writing poetry about, um, like from prayers that I had, and I was like taking prayers and journal entries and [00:06:00] turning them into poems and like people would, would like come for me about like what translation I was using.
And I was just like, what? Okay. So I guess even if you’re doing art, like so a lot to say, so it’s,
Harper: oh my God, I’m, it’s been a very, you can’t, for those who can’t see, I’m like totally shaking my head, you know, SMH, shaking my head yes. Wow. Yes.
Nichols: So a lot of different variations of that. I have many, many different stories, but somehow through it all I really, I think the word that, and I know this word is used a lot, but it, it’s a word that means a lot to me, is that embodied.
And for me it’s, I really do feel that I saw my, my parents embody faith in, in a way that I’m like, yeah, I, what I’m doing is different than what they did, but I, I saw enough of it to know that, hey, even amidst other people telling you that you’re not doing whatever the right way, [00:07:00] it’s like I saw them.
Be Jesus to others in a very, in a very, and I mean, they, our, our, our church had like a hundred, 150 people I think at the most, at one point, maybe 200 at the most of all the years. It was a very small church. So I mean though they didn’t get like the whole other aspect of it, but it was like it was real and it, and it felt real.
And when I, and I still talk to them all the time about it, I’m just like, yeah, I learned a lot from seeing that. And I, I go back to that a lot there. They’re a lot more my mom, my mom especially, she’s a lot more extroverted than me. So for her version, it was like, open up the door and let people come in the house.
I’m like, I don’t know if I can do that. That’s, um, I’m definitely more introverted. I’m like, I…
Harper: I need this safe space!
Nichols: Like I used to, I used, I still have vivid memories of like seeing people pull up in front of the house and like, I could tell by the lights slowing down. I see, see the lights bouncing off, [00:08:00] like time to run upstairs.
I, I don’t have time for this. Like, I’m like, I over, I’m like, remember when Jesus went to the wilderness? That’s, that’s my version of this.
Harper: Um, oh my gosh.
Nichols: Y’all can have the public square.
Harper: Oh my gosh, that’s so funny. So, well, let me ask you this, like when you were looking at your, you. You know, tracking with your parents, living out their faith, their embodied faith.
And it sounds like your mom is really kind of awesome and your dad too. You know, that he kind of bucked the whole thing about don’t draw in church. What was it like, do you remember, was there like a thing that happened that you saw in a way that you saw them engage that kind of was seared into your memory and you kind of carry with you?
Was there a moment or a practice or something like that?
Nichols: Yeah, my, my mom used to put on plays and
Harper: Oh, wow!
Nichols: She used to paint all the backdrops, make all the costumes.
Harper: Oh my gosh!
Nichols: And my mom didn’t know how to sew, so they would be [00:09:00] like, kind of like taped, the costumes would be like, taped together, but it was for the production.
And she’s very, oh. She’s like, oh, yeah, I didn’t know how, so I was just trying make look good. And, and my dad, he was simultaneously a, um, electrician and, and, and pastor at the same time. And I actually, and, and these images just pop up for me at different times. And it was like, I always saw them doing something else.
Like, and I, I don’t know if it’s because, you know, it’s like a very small church and just, you know, my dad having to work, you know, another job, but I always saw them like doing something else. So it wasn’t, and I was like, oh, I think that’s why I’m so comfortable with that. It was like, it’s like, yes, I’m a, I’m a pastor’s wife, but it’s also theater.
Harper: Like why not?
Nichols: Like my mom did like a whole, she took the parts of the Wizard of Oz and the Wiz and put them together and like made a production outta it.
Harper: Oh my God!
Nichols: Yeah. It was just, [00:10:00] we never got to put it on. It was like,
Harper: Nobody’s ever seen it. But it exists!
Nichols: Exactly.
And that’s ok. It was very like in, you know, definitely nepotism.
I got cast as Dorothy, but I did learn my lines. I learned all my lines and, um, I was like, Ooh, mom, are we gonna wear, um, am I gonna get to wear red shoes? Like, no, we’re not doing that part of the wizard. She was like, we’re doing it our own way. So yeah, it was a lot of images of just watching them do multiple things at once.
Um, and I, and I think that, that, that’s really stayed with me. It’s so beautiful.
Harper: And so you, you shared how you learned that you were a visual artist, but how did you discover that you were a poet?
Nichols: Ooh. You know, I think I’m still discovering,
Harper: Are you kidding me? This is a book full of poetry!Whatcha talking about?
Nichols: I know, I I, it’s true. At the same time…
Harper: You’ve got like a hundred poems up in here. Come on.
Nichols: At the same time, I’m, I’m just like, I literally, as you said that I put my hands and you wanna know where my hands fell when I [00:11:00] did like this. I, cuz this is what I’m reading for a second time through, it’s, uh, Tony Morrison’s The Source of Self Regard.
Ooh. And it’s like this is a writer.
Harper: Wow.
Nichols: That for me is like, I’m like, oh, this is a writer. Sometimes I, I mean, I, I’ve already read this and I’m reading it again and. Just, oh, that, her words just get me every time. So sometimes I, when it comes to my own writing, I’m like, am I, am I doing that?
Harper: Girl, You are! Own that mess!
Nichols: Oh my goodness. Oh yes.
Harper: You really are. I mean, I’m reading your pieces and I, I intend to read a few out loud in this time. Do you mind if I do that?
Nichols: Oh, I don’t mind at all. Thank you.
Harper: Okay, we’ll, we’ll get that in the next segment, so just hold on everybody. Um, but, but it’s really good. It’s really good. So, so do, was there a moment when you like discovered I, I might be a poet. And not that you would write three books with a place on poetry. [00:12:00]
Nichols: It was, it was Mr. Milford at my community college, and he knows, I, I’ve, I’ve told him many times I had to write a poem for an assignment, and I, I’d written poetry before. I had written poetry before, and, and my mom was very like, encouraging and I had been writing music and all that, but I didn’t really, you know, it’s one thing I give, you know, if your parents are encouraging you, it’s like, oh, I appreciate that.
But I, it wasn’t until I got to college and I had, I had a, a professor and I had written. At a time. I remember just reading about, um, reading about Vietnam War. And I had written about, and, and without mentioning Vietnam War War, I had just written about from the perspective of this black soldier who was just really going through it, coming home.
And I just focused on the emotion and, and I was just trying to do the assignment. It was like an American literature class. I was just trying to do the assignment. And Mr. Milford pulled me over and he is like, Hey Morgan, um, you’re a writer. You should do [00:13:00] this. You should write poetry. And I was like, are you sure?
And in that short section between him teaching two classes in like three minutes, he laid out for me what I could do as a poet. He was like, you’re gonna look up MFA programs. He’s like, you could be a poet this way. You could do spoken word, you can have a blog. And he just like laid it. I was. No one ever told me.
And…
Harper: Why not?
Nichols: That was a key moment for me. It was, it was somebody else seeing it and saying it to me because I, I, I was just doing the assignment, but he saw something else there. And that, that really was like the first, first moment where I was like, okay, let’s, that’s right.
Harper: Wow. Now you also talk about your neuro divergence. And so how is that a factor in your work and your sense of.
Nichols: Oh, yes. That is a huge thing that is making my whole life make sense. Even down to, you know, [00:14:00] what I was sharing earlier, just about early faith, early God moments in nature and all of that. For me, it was the way that I naturally communicate and the way that I naturally even speak.
I don’t, I don’t think, and, and every, every person who’s on the spectrum has a different story. So I’m definitely not at all describing all autistic people’s experiences here. But for me, I don’t, um, I don’t think in words. So it’s very abstract, very spacial. So by the time something gets into words or even like non-abstract imagery, a flower.
That takes a lot of effort for me to be able to get what I’m trying to say into that. So, poetry is such a beautiful medium for someone who is not thinking in sentences. Yeah. Because it allows room for the words to just fall on the [00:15:00] page one by one. And. I think that’s what I love about art is that it’s permission to communicate in a way that feels very natural to me, and that I, I don’t have to work over time to communicate this way.
So it feels very natural for me to break up words, lines, and I just, I find a lot of, of, of freedom in that, a lot of just healing in that, of, of years of trying to fit other people’s molds. Yeah. I, I just keep returning to these practices over and over because it just reminds me of like, there’s, there’s room for me to communicate in the way that, that I, that I desire to.
Like, one thing, I mean, I won’t spend too long on this one thing, I think about a lot just being a, a, a Black American English speaker is like, We haven’t been speaking English forever. Like, it’s only like [00:16:00] a, a few generations back. Like if you really think about it, it’s,
Harper: Wow!
Nichols: There’s so many things that we have that we’re just like, yeah, we, we we’re kind of forced to go along with them.
And I think about that. I’m like, it was not that long ago that my ancestors would not have been, I don’t know how they would’ve spoken, but it probably wasn’t, you know, in a Word document in, you know,
Harper: Hello!
Nichols: White page with Black and Backspacing and, and having to, if your name is spelled differently, having to add it to the dictionary, it probably wasn’t that.
So I, I think about that a lot. And, and poetry and art helps me get to that place of like, yeah, there’s something beyond like those boxes. Like I can, I can push, I can, you know, explore something else.
Harper: That is so powerful. I mean, when I, um, my, my family, we have two, I have two, a nephew and a niece who are both neurodivergent.
One of them is an absolute genius with regard to the New York subway system. Like he [00:17:00] literally knows every single train in the entire subway system and their times and routes and everything. Like he is an absolute genius with regard to patterns and, and how things kind of work together. And my other, um, niece she just recently was actually diagnosed with Neurodivergence and homegirl, literally just like you, you were giving me hope for her, right?
Because she will sit there in class or wherever, it doesn’t matter, wherever. She’s, she’s always doodling, but she’s not just, she’s not just doodling, she’s actually an illustrator. She’s literally drawing the, the cartoons that she just watched on TV as well as the people who have a job and did it on TV.
Right? And now she’s actually creating characters. And so the, the fact that you love that you took, you took this special way that your brain works and found a way for you to funnel that into a medium art, uh, in particular [00:18:00] poetry and visual arts, and communicate to the world truths and wisdom that we all need is just so beautiful and powerful, and I can see why you have 2 million followers.
Hello, somebody. Right? Um, I mean, on Instagram, by the way, did I mention that? Hello? 2 million followers on Instagram. Can I ask you, like, was that a surprise when that happened?
Nichols: Yes. It’s always a surprise. I I’m always,
Harper: Every time you look at it, right?
Nichols: I’m never not shocked. I, I can’t, yeah, I don’t know. I, no, no, no.
Harper: Keep going.
Nichols: It’s very mystifying to me. I think about it a lot because it’s, it’s definitely a, you know, a, a way of sharing one’s work in, in our modern world. And, and I, and I, I don’t quite know how to make sense of it, so I just stop trying. I’m just like, you know what? For, for some reason, um, this number of people have clicked on this and said that they like this.
And [00:19:00] if I think about it too long, I, I would probably scare myself out of doing it. So I’m just like, I don’t know who you all are, but I’m so glad you’re here. Um..
Harper: And honestly, that’s what I really appreciate about the way that you run your, your corner of the IG world, is that I don’t see you trying to reach for approval of the people or, or reach for followers.
I see you doing you. Like I really do. I see you speaking the truth into the world that you have for that day and letting it land where it lands. And I guarantee you that there, I mean, people, obviously people are resonating. With, with the truth that is coming through you. And so, I mean, I, I think you’re a prophet.
I really do. I think you’re like one of these modern day prophets. Um, and a prophet: there are several kinds of prophets my pastor told me once. Um, one interprets the past, another interprets the present, and the other interprets the scripture. Right? According to my pastor. [00:20:00] We’ll see how that works out. But, but I actually do, I mean, I, I actually find resonance with that.
And I think as I was reading through your book, um, you are only just beginning. I think that a lot of what you’re doing is interpreting, um, people’s inner life, like you’re interpreting the present for people and helping them to move forward into, into the future. Right. It’s not like you’re, you’re not like, there’s no crystal ball.
You’re not doing a crystal ball. But what you are saying is you’re saying, um, this is what’s happening right now. Be mindful of it.
Nichols: Yes. Oh, right.
Harper: Yeah. Yeah.
Nichols: I’m just saying. Yeah, I know this is a podcast. I’m supposed to use words. I’m just nodding. Cause I’m like, that’s what you’ve, what you said. Just I, I feel very, that’s very affirming because that is what it, that is what it feels like.
It’s, I, I can’t remember. I read somewhere and they were some, I some like literary critic thing. I don’t remember what it was. They were like, writing is about [00:21:00] like, what was, and I’m just like, mm-hmm. Okay. And, um, I’m also like, I, the, when I, when I do feel, when it comes to this whole Instagram and, and social media and all these, and you know, accounts and things going on, I do feel the sense of when I, when I get ready to pu publish or post anything, I am definitely feeling, oh, there is a lot going on right now.
I’m like, if everybody here that might see this, were in a room together. And we just sat in that room without saying anything for 10 seconds, you would feel it. You would feel that There is a lot here.
Harper: Wow.
Nichols: And I, I can say that I do feel that way, and, and it does, it does end up. I think that’s why I, I end up coming back to a lot of simple words a lot of times because it’s like, it gets to a point where you, when you consider like, the sheer possibility of what people are going [00:22:00] through.
It’s just, yeah. It, it’s, it’s like, wow, I just wanna, as, as any way I can just, just speak to speak to people there and, and yeah. I am getting to a place where it’s getting harder with words.
Harper: Mm-hmm.
Nichols: I’m finding myself sharing more things that don’t have words because it’s, it’s, it’s like, yeah, there’s, there’s so much here and it’s, and it’s very…
It’s, it’s hard through the screen sometimes, you know, to make that, that connection. So that’s something I, I try to work out through, through the art.
Harper: It’s thick. It’s thick, and you are actually doing ministry, like you’re actually kind of a pastor to 2 million people.
These are our stories. You’re listening to the Freedom Road Podcast, where we bring you stories from the front lines of the struggle for justice.
Harper: So [00:23:00] let’s come. And I have another question for you. You’re this latest book, You Are Only Just Beginning, dropped into stores on February 14th, Valentine’s Day, which is kind of cool of this year, and it’s the last in a trilogy. Am I right?
Nichols: Yes. Yes. Okay. So I’ve written three books of poetry and art. Yes.
Harper: And I actually went out and I got all three. And so I’m, I really did, I mean, look, I literally feel. I feel like I discovered treasure. Like I literally do. I feel like I just, I just bumped into treasure. Like, you know, like when sometimes, and I think that I kind of do, do this on ig, like I surf, you know, you have your little swipe up. And you’re like looking for something that hits you.
And then like, boom, you hit me like you are, and then I went into your little portal into your world and Wow. I felt like I was out there with my little, like my little treasure mind thing, you know, that goes beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. You know, when it hit the treasure. And then I just went digging. So when I, when I saw that you have one book, and I was like, my God, this is the last in tri, oh, go out and get the other two.[00:24:00]
Now the, the last of the trilogy for me is actually on its way from, you know, from the bookstore. So I have the two with me. I have your last book, and then I have All Along You Were Blooming. Is that the second one?
Nichols: Yes, that one’s the first one. So yes, you have the, you have the book ends, you have the. You have the past and the future.
Harper: So fabulous. And so, well, you know, what, what were you trying to do through this trilogy?
Nichols: Yes. So honestly, I think I was trying to work out what I had been through in my own life, and that’s not how I would’ve answered that question when I started it. Right. I think I would’ve answered saying, oh, well, you know, I’m sharing poetry and art and I got a chance to, you know, write a book and da da da, da.
Right? Yeah. But the more I look back at it, the more I see, oh, wait a minute, you lived an entire life up to I, I was [00:25:00] 29 when that first book came out. Twenty-nine years of life struggling with something huge and not having a clue what it was.
Harper: Wow.
Nichols: Uh, knowing that, you know, when it came to autism that. Oh, not, not everybody has to plan their sentences ahead of time.
Harper: Oh my gosh!
Nichols: And, and just recognizing all of those little things. And for me, going back to that, God telling me like, I’m gonna speak to you in color, that’s what it was. It was finally bringing all of that to the page even before I knew what it was. Wow. And when I look back at it now, I, I can almost, I’m at a point now where I can hardly open All Along You Were Blooming.
I can barely even open it. Just being honest. I can barely open it.
Harper: Really? Why?
Nichols: Because I can see what I was working out. I can, I know those brushstrokes, I know every single color. [00:26:00] I I know. I mean, I, I will spend hours on little dots and lines.
Harper: Yeah. Yeah.
Nichols: And all of that. And I was like, oh, wait a minute. Yeah.
That was a way that, that. God was whispering and showing me little ways of just, I see you and here’s a little bit of space, a little bit of room that’s filled with boundless grace. It’s just a page, but within that page is boundless possibilities. Mm-hmm. And you’re allowed to take that time to just be still and just breathe.
Harper: Wow.
Nichols: And that’s what I was moving through with those pages, every single one. And, and that’s continued with that whole series. So when I, when I hear from people who say that, It connected with them. I, I had a, I had a, a friend that I made not too long ago and they told me, they were [00:27:00] like, yeah, my therapist bought me a book for Christmas and they gave it to me.
It was your book and so funny and this particular friend, I was like, I never would’ve like, we don’t really have a ton in common. I was like, I never would’ve imagined that. And for me, when I hear that, I’m like, yeah, this was bigger than me. Cuz I didn’t even know what was going on. It didn’t mean it really, it, it definitely, I thought I was making, I thought I was making art in poetry.
I’m like, oh, I got a chance to make art in poetry. It’s like, oh no, like this is, this is you, like really experiencing grace in a massive way that you talking to myself that I may have not have even known what’s really possible. And leading up to that first book, I had spent a lot of time trying to make it in music and I I did…
Harper: Really?
Nichols: Yes. Yes. So I have like a whole other…
Harper: Wow. That’s a whole other life. My God. Okay.
Nichols: Whole other thing. Um, long story short, I have a sister, my younger sister, she is, was way more, way [00:28:00] more in music than I was, and I was just kind of like a tag along. Like she is still way more high energy, way more. I, I, so I ended up doing a lot of stuff with her.
Harper: Wow. But I, you know what, can I just say, I, I hear it in your voice. I can hear that you’re a singer. I mean, you, it’s either that or you just belong on the radio, but you have an amazing voice.
Nichols: Thank you.
Harper: You really do.
Nichols: Oh, well, thank you. I, I do sing and, and even that is connected to autism because I am very conscious.
Every sound. Every sound. So it helped me learn how to sing. So, um, yeah, there’s a lot to it, but I ended up, long story short, I ended up in some spaces where for the first time I, I was in, in a lot of white churches and it was my very first time in like big white churches that because I, I went from small black church and other churches, but they were all like small churches.
And then I [00:29:00] went to college, which was a lot of small white churches. But then after college and I started doing music, big white churches are right. That’s a whole other thing.
Harper: It’s a whole…beast.
Nichols: Yes. And that was for me, a lot of culture shock, just being honest. Yeah. That was where I started to hear a lot of the, I mean literally being told, like sitting in a Bible study setting, doodling like I always do, and having someone literally approach me and saying, why do you doodle so much?
Why are you writing? So what were you writing down? Literally the, what were you writing down? And I was like…
Harper: I’m sorry, I’m getting all incensed for you, which you don’t need.
Nichols: But yeah, I, I have these clear memories. So my sister, who’s also neurodivergent, we used to, we play guitar and we used to put guitar cases all over our guitar cases.
I mean all, I’m sorry, stickers all over our guitar cases. We just, everywhere we traveled, we were just like collecting stickers.
Harper: That’s cool.
Nichols: Multiple times over the course of, from around [00:30:00] 2011 to 2016 when I was really doing this with her multiple times, I would look over side stage or side of the, the platform where we were singing and I would see one of the church staff scanning.
It’s the guitar case to see. Is there anything controversial on here? Now we are smart enough. There was nothing on there. Like literally just looking so close reading every sticker, like what’s on these girls’ guitar cases?
Harper: Oh wait, can I just say very quickly, real quick that I think that part of the reason, well part of what you were experiencing was the race test. And the race test makes sure that if you’re gonna be black, you gotta be the right kind of black person, right. Kind to be in this space. Yeah. Did you experience that?
Nichols: Absolutely. That’s what I felt like because I’m, the thing that was, that was interesting about it. You know, we’re preacher’s kids. It’s like we’re used to scrutiny.
I’m like, I, [00:31:00] you’re not gonna get… you’re not gonna catch me. Like mm-hmm. So it was interesting cause it was like the guitar case, you know, it was always just like, you know, it was like, oh, here’s where I’m gonna, here’s where I’m gonna get ’em. Here’s where I’m go. I’m gonna find that sticker that really, and I’m talking multiple times over the course of years.
And sadly, my sister has way more intense stories than that. And I mean, I had some that were, that those were some of the subtle things, but sometimes I like talking about the subtle things cuz it’s like, because it’s like the big ones. It’s like, like I literally had one time in Arkansas, someone was, I, they, they didn’t know that they had booked a diverse band to come to the church.
Harper: Oh.
Nichols: And I overheard someone say, Oh, did you see they got some color folks in there, in that band? Like y’all? I wasn’t born in like 1920s. Like I was born in 1990. Like this is, this was 2015. 2015 in Arkansas. Okay. And two years before that, my sister was at a show playing at a show in Arkansas where they had to [00:32:00] put it in the paper because it was still technically a sundown-town and probably still is, but they had to put it in the paper there was a diverse group coming.
So I, I even had a little prep going in cuz my sister had been there before I knew, you know, I knew something might happen and I was…
Harper: Like, y’all my jaw, is like down on the table here. What?
Nichols: And it was, it was wild. Cause it was like, the first time it was like, oh you’re getting to like, I was traveling, you know, with different worship groups and stuff like that.
I was, I was like, oh, I get to make music. And, and so it was like this, it’s a strange thing cuz it was like, that was the first time. I mean, not my, not my first experience with racism, but that was like my first time where it was like consistently like, on a regular basis, like in churches across the country.
Harper: Wow.
Nichols: Like where these different things were happening and it was like the larger, sometimes the worst. So it created this like, It created this version of myself where I think I was just trying to survive.
Harper: Yes.
Nichols: Cuz I was just like, [00:33:00] well, I mean, God gave me a gift in music and this is the only space. You know, maybe this is like an indefinite Esther situation, you know?
Harper: Oh my gosh. Wow.
Nichols: Which is trying to like, but it’s like, you know, Sometimes I’m like, but did Esther ever get burnt out. Like, did you ever get to a point where it was just like…
Harper: Wait a minute, I’ve never heard. There needs to be a sermon. In fact, um, Dr. Brenda Salter McNeil, if you were listening to this, um, that is your next Esther sermon, cuz she, she, her, Esther is her girl, right?
Um, it’s when Esther burns out, that’s really good.
Nichols: I, I had it. And that came from, and if, and if by some chance my friends, my friend who said this, here’s me, say this. Please don’t. I know you meant it sincerely. I had a friend say to me as I was explaining all this, she’s like, oh, you’re Esther. And I’m just like, well, I’m a very burned out, Esther.
Harper: Wow. Can I ask you, cuz you, cuz you wear your hair natural now and I know that the natural look is one. The natural look is one that kind of came, [00:34:00] it kind of rose into prominence starting around year, maybe 19 97, 19 98. Like my first friends that I ever saw go Natural when were in that, were in that time and they were at UCLA, they were students and it was like boom.
Like their faces just pops. Like all of a sudden you could see who they were supposed to be cuz they had been wearing their hair straightened. And Me too. And I bucked it for a long time and I have a whole story I can tell you, you know, offline, maybe we’ll do it. You know what, I’ll tell you the story and you can tell me your story. Um, in the, in the Patreon, um, conversation, the subscriber conversation also for some step,
Nichols: Yes, I’ve got some stories.
Harper: Oh, ok. Okay. But I’m just wondering, like you wear your hair natural now, was your hair straight then? Was that one of, of the ways that you were trying to space?
Nichols: Absolutely. And and I have, I have stories, but I’ll, you know, I’ll just say now.
And it was a very key, like, sensory thing too, because the thing that actually got me was when people were touching my hair. Like that was like the few times where I, you know, [00:35:00] tried to wear and it was like, oh, can I, and I was like, oh, hold on, I gotta put this stuff up.
Harper: Cause I had like icky all over my skin right now. Like literally icky, just all up my skin.
Nichols: That was the turning point for me. I was like, well I’m, I’m gonna just wear, wear a style that looks like you don’t want to touch it. And I started wearing hats and I started trying, I started wearing layered clothes. Like you can say, like if you look up pictures of me from like, when I was in my twenties, you’ll see it. I, yeah. Armor.
Harper: Yes. That’s armor exactly what I was gonna say. Yes. Mm-hmm. You had armor on. It was always I know that. I know that very well. I understand the armor. So let me ask you this, I’m gonna switch, switch gears a little bit. We’ll come back to that and that and that special subscriber conversation.
Don’t let me forget that. But it strikes me that this last book in the trilogy. Um, you know, your title proclaims that this is only the beginning and yet it’s the last book.
Nichols: Yeah. Yes.
Harper: So where did that title come from?
Nichols: Yes, it comes from Monarch Butterflies. So Monarch Butterflies are the last [00:36:00] chapter of the book, and it was the start, it was the start of writing the book.
It was the Monarch Butterflies because Monarch Butterfly migration, it’s one of my special interests. I’ve spent a lot of time on butterflies. The way that their migration cycle works is they can migrate as far south as, as Mexico, as far north as Canada in North America.
Harper: Wow.
Nichols: And the butterflies in the middle of the migration don’t live to see the the final destination.
Harper: Oh my God.
Nichols: And when I found that, It really was a very sobering reality for me because it made me realize and realize is probably not actually the right word. It’s probably remember. Because it made me remember, oh, wait a minute, I’m a part of something bigger than myself. I’m paving the way for someone else.
And it doesn’t have to mean like a literal generation, like I, I am parent, but it doesn’t have to mean like [00:37:00] a literal generation of like, you know, a child that, that you are a caretaker or parent of. But it’s just what I’m doing today is a part of something more and this idea of, oh, we’re just getting started.
We’re, we’re, we’re creating something now that someone else is going to carry on. Hmm. And, and butterfly lifetimes are so short, so it’s not even about carrying on in terms of like 70, 80 years, but it’s like, what am I saying now that can help someone carry on for another seventy or eighty minutes?
Harper: Oh my God.
Nichols: And how can that create something that is every time, that’s just a starting over, like, we’re just going and we’re going and we’re able to speak to one another. And I, I found myself having to think about it that way because for the first time in 2017, yeah, I saw, um, started to get some ancestry information and for the first time I saw the, um, I guess not the [00:38:00] obituary, but it’s like when someone in the, in the paper, it.
Is it called the obituary?
Harper: Obituary, yeah. When somebody passes and they write about this.
Nichols: Yeah. Okay. For some reason that word was a clicky for me. But yeah, it was the obituary of, I guess, you know what, I think I know what it was because it was only like a sentence or two. It was just like, oh, by the way this happened in the town.
Like he didn’t really get a full page, but it was on my great great grandfather who had, uh, was who was born a slave and died free. And when I found that out, I had a very strange feeling about it because it wasn’t well how I thought I would feel. I thought I was gonna feel like, oh, look at me. Like we’ve, we’ve come so far.
But I didn’t feel that way. Through me, the first thing that came to mind were everybody that came before that didn’t get that ending.
Harper: Oh my God.
Nichols: And I immediately just started thinking, I’m like, wow. As. [00:39:00] As good as that is why so long?
Harper: Oh my gosh.
Nichols: Why so many before?
Harper: Yes.
Nichols: Why so many others who didn’t get that part?
Harper: Yeah.
Nichols: And for me, I just, I feel like, I mean, sometimes literally I could just be open in the fridge and that that little, those sentences will just pop up in my mind. And I just, and I, and I feel like I live with that tension. Like I, I live with that tension of at the same time I, yes, I, we’ve come so far and at the same time, no, we’re just getting started because I’m feeling that in my body that it was just, Five minutes ago that, you know, yes, that happened.
So yeah, that, that’s a huge, it’s very complex imagery, full experience that led me to this. You are only just beginning as this idea of like, we’re just getting started. We’re just getting started. Like, let me not lose hope. Let me not lose hope. [00:40:00]
Harper: Oh my God. Hallelujah! I’m like, literally, let’s look, can we just like worship right now? Since you sing you could probably lead it. Like it’s, this is so, this is so, God. And it is so true, and I am so resonating with this because for me, um, the book Fortune, you know, obviously my last book, Fortune, it, it moves us backwards right into that time so that we can actually go through those generations with our ancestors and, and like understand the world that they lived in.
And I have often thought, even in the last, literally in the last year, even since the book came out, imagine being in one of those, um, in one of those middle generations that never experienced freedom on either side, right? Like, just sit in that for a minute. What, that’s what you were just bringing out.
Yeah. That is, and not knowing the future. You don’t know that the Civil War is coming. You don’t [00:41:00] know that the 13th and 14th and 15th and 19th amendments are coming. You don’t know. All you know is what has been. Nobody’s ever told you, nobody ever told you there was a time when your people were free. Right? So you just think we’ve always been enslaved. That’s the way it’s supposed to be. And you experience this oppression every day of your life. Like, and it’s in that context, Morgan, that the black church was born. Like that. Just, there is something like, there’s all kind of things that like intersect there that aren’t supposed to.
Nichols: Wow.
Harper: And it’s kind of a miracle. These people should have died of despair. But yet the, the all, most, not all, but most of the major moments of transformation in our world, in our world, in the us, the whole world, but in the US and actually often inspiring the whole [00:42:00] world, um, have come from us, have come from people who should not have had hope.
Nichols: Mm. Wow.
Harper: And yet did because of our faith. Mm. Have you ever gone there? Have you ever thought about like, the impact of our faith of black faith
Nichols: Wow.
Harper: On us in the world?
Nichols: I had not thought about until you said that the, the ones who were in the middle and how, uh, like I have a lot to think about.
That is So that is very Yeah. Deep, deep is the word. Mm-hmm. Because it is, there is depth, boundless depth in that. And I, I feel like I’m gonna be swimming in that for a while.
Harper: So you moved back to your hometown? Can you tell me about that? Because I did too. I am now sitting, I’m sitting one block from where my great-grandmother, my grandmother, and my mom and my granddad, I always believe out the men, sorry, men. Um, and a great grand, great great grandfather. Not great, great, great-grandfather lived. They lived one block away, so Wow. I know [00:43:00] the power of that. How has it been for you? When did that happen and what led you to that choice?
Nichols: Yes. Honestly, it was realizing that I had really overworked myself and I felt very burnt out.
I spent a decade of my life as an adult not knowing that, oh, I have all kinds of needs around, everything from sensory needs to just work needs, I work better from home. I didn’t know any of that stuff. Like, I was just like, whoa, you’re supposed to do stuff, you know, you can play, you can sing, you can do something, go do it.
You know?
Harper: Right, right, right.
Nichols: So I’d spent 10 years just doing that and just trying to like, make myself available and, and trying to, to, to prove myself, you know, in society and in many different versions of that. And it just got to a point where, um, I was just like, you know what? I cannot do this forever, this way.
And a huge turning point was I actually had surgery, I had a, a [00:44:00] fibroid removed. And I was asking my doctor, Hey, you know, what do you think is going on? Probably like, I don’t know, has your life been stressful? And I’m like, Little bit.
Harper: Wow.
Nichols: Um, and I was like, yeah, I cannot, and, and you know, just the, the recovery time from the surgery alone, it was like, I cannot at, at, at 30, I guess I was, I was 30, just turned 32, and I had the surgery.
I was like, I cannot just keep on going like this. I have to go back to a place where there’s just gonna be less pressure. And as much as I loved, I was living on the, we were living on the West coast and loved it there. It was like if, if we moved back home, so my husband, he’s also from Georgia. We met in college in, in Georgia, and I was like, we moved back home.
We can just take some of the pressure off. So that was the biggest thing. It, it wasn’t really a, um, I didn’t really want to at first, like, it wasn’t like, oh, I’m just looking forward to like, I miss my West coast sunsets. Oh my [00:45:00] goodness.
Harper: Oh gosh, yes.
Nichols: But at the same time, I’m, I, when I got back here, I was like, oh my goodness, I’m a completely different person now and my favorite thing.
The mini, I mean, we’ve only been here for back here for a year, but my favorite thing was before I left at 24, I always just, oh, I couldn’t stand the trees. I was like, I, I was like, I just want to see beyond the trees. I was like, I wanna get beyond on the trees. Me, I felt like trees like suffocated me. Like, I was like, I just wanna get past that.
I wanna get past it. And then when I got back, the first thing I noticed here the rivers and the creeks that I in place, I never noticed them before. I was like in the same roads I used to drive down and just say, oh, I wanna see up. I was like, I had never looked down. I was like, there’s rivers and there are creeks here.
And that speaks to me just as much as open skies.
Harper: Oh yeah.
Nichols: So it’s just been like that, that is like the perfect [00:46:00] metaphor for, for what the experience has been like. It was like, oh, okay. After all those years of just feeling like, okay, keep going up and up and up. It’s like, or just keep going down to the ground.
Mm. Let’s just, uh, Let’s just kind of hang out down here for a little bit. So, wow.
Harper: So you are so speaking my language. I mean, you know, one of the things that I, I’ve kind of discovered about shalom, this biblical concept of shalom, um, which is what we call radical peace, right? That it’s really ultimately about radical connection with all things and all people, and all, all beings.
Um, so radical connection with God, with self, with the land, with each other, between all the genders, um, between nations, um, and between us and life, right? So radical connection, and so what you’re describing to me is the health that comes from the radical connection with the land, and you were able to reconnect with [00:47:00] the land.
And I, I, so actually I have to say, first of all, we’re gonna go to a break because we’re, we’re, we’re there, um, and we’re gonna come back and we’re gonna talk a little bit more about that radical connection with the land.
Walking Freedom Road from coast to coast and around the globe. This is the Freedom Road podcast.
Nichols: Oh, I’m gonna drink some water that just, that got me. Oh wow.
Harper: It’s true. Right? So, okay, so let, let’s,
Nichols: I’m so glad this is recorded. I wanted, so we can edit a version. I don’t have to hear me, and I could just hear you.
Harper: Oh my God, no. Are you kidding me? No, I can just play that back. Well, you’ll be able to play it back, right?
That’s so funny. Isn’t that great? It’s so great about this. Oh my goodness. Yes.
Nichols: But no, your, your insights are like, wow,
Harper: Likewise. I’m just No, truly thank you. The fact that, the fact that you decided to move home, because I also made that choice, right? So, mm-hmm. Okay. We’re now, we’re back. We’re we all got into talking before we even came [00:48:00] back, y’all.
So now we’re back. Um, and, you know, um, I made that choice as well to move home and it made. Oh, the difference. I think also it made a difference for me. And I’m also struck by the fact that you recently started to en um, engage in your ancestry, you said. Um, was that about three years ago, or was it 20, 20 17, you said?
Yeah, however many years ago that was,
Nichols: I have no idea, but yes, yes. 2017.
Harper: What was it like for you, the very first time you ever got your ancestry story? Like your, um, your DNA story back? Have you done the DNA yet?
Nichols: Oh, yes. Yes. Um, I know very mixed feelings, strong feelings about that. Um, for some reason I just had not factored in the impact of seeing the European ancestry.
Harper: That’s right, yes.
Nichols: Like mm-hmm. The, I don’t even, I don’t even know the word. It was distracting, is the only way I can [00:49:00] think about it. It’s like I couldn’t see anything else. It took up all the space in my mind as I looked, and, and it took me a very long time to go back and, and look at it and, and, and see the whole picture.
Cuz I just had not factored that in. I mean, I, I’m black, like
Harper: Yeah, right?
Nichols: And, and it’s like, I never, and even though, even though in my family I grew up with stories about, you know, people passing and that, that wasn’t my experience. So, you know, it was just like, okay, those are the stories. Mm-hmm. But I’m moving through the world as a black person.
I’m like, what, what more is there? You know? So yeah, for me it was like, oh my goodness, this, this whole thing, like this whole caste system of like just breaking people up in groups like this is just wildly ridiculous. Um,
Harper: Yes.
Nichols: And, and it’s. It’s just like, it’s astonishing how, I mean, [00:50:00] it’s unsurprising, but it’s just like, wow. This is strange. Just to see how it, wow. You, we really were just, just put in categories based on skin color oh, it, I know that sounds, it sounds so basic to say, and I think that’s why when I looked at it, it was just like, oh, well what did I expect? You know, like, this is, this is the story.So.
Harper: You know, and the, the thing I think, I don’t know if this struck you, it did strike me the first time it, my mom actually said it to me first. She was the first person to get into all of the DNA stuff, actually all of it, you know, the ancestry stuff, the going and building, the family tree and the DNA, and when I got mine, I actually wept.
I literally wept out loud because it was the first time I felt like I was meeting my ancestors for the first time. Like, you know, you know. As an African American person. Yeah. We go our whole lives. We had, yeah. Gone our whole lives. Not knowing who we are And then we get this paper back that says, well, you [00:51:00] are 26% um, whatever it is. Like for me at the time it said Benin, you know, Benin, Togo. And now it says, um, you know, it’s because the science has developed.
Nichols: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Harper: Um, I think that it says Molly, right? So there’s like 11 or 13% Molly and Da da and then, but 36% European.
Nichols: We, we have, we have the exact same percentage.
Harper: What I know, girl, I was looking at your hair going, well maybe we,
Nichols: I mean we, we do have same last name as well, so I forgot about that part.
Harper: Um, I know we’ll talk about that. We’ll talk about that. That’s my stepdad’s last name actually, not by blood. So that’s interesting. But No, I do wanna talk about that.
Oh yeah. But the thing that, the thing that my mom said, she said, Lisa, our d n a is a map of the slave trade. Hmm. That’s what it is. It’s a map of this. Look, we are the evidence. That’s why when I’ve walked in, [00:52:00] I, I have been in many, you know, many circles and one of them in particular that was like the, one of the most uncomfortable, I’ve been in a few of those most uncomfortable circles in white evangelical circles, and especially really highly affluent, like really like moneyed white evangelical circles, right?
And people come together over the reception and they’ve got their wine and their cheese and everybody’s asking, well what do you do? What do you do? And where are you from and where are you from? And I, and there are no black people except for me usually, or maybe one other black person who is, and we’re never anywhere near each other cuz we don’t wanna draw attention to the fact that the pepper is in the room and the bowl is salt.
And so, you know, but I am uncomfortable for them to be around. I am, my body am uncomfortable because I am my body am the evidence. Of the thing they don’t want to face. And so, you know, I just, yeah, I, I’m struck by.
Nichols: Right. No, it’s, it’s very true. And that, and that [00:53:00] paper operates the same way. So to throw in a, a, a curve ball, to use a sports analogy. I can’t think of another one. Yeah. To make it even more intense. I actually found out while I was being filmed because my, my energetic younger sister signed us up for a reality show where it was like, what? How do you buy your ancestry? What, so yeah, it was like a whole thing.
And we actually got to meet other relatives that, you know, we, they didn’t know how we were connected, but they were like, oh, you share DNA. It was a really cool experience, but it was, it was, it was also just very complicated cuz I didn’t feel, had I not been feel filmed, I probably would have reacted more as you did because it did, it was so heavy.
And, and to just walk around with that. And, and it’s interesting cuz it’s like I, I do talk to, you know, some other, some other black people who, who they, they don’t, they, they read theirs and they were just like, yeah, okay, it is what it is. But you know, I’m like, [00:54:00] there’s there, I think there’s others though, where it’s just like, oh, it kind of hits you in in a way that you can’t just like set it over there and, and I’m just like, yeah, I think we need more room for that to be okay.
It’s like that’s going to, like, there’s not exactly like a lot of therapy books out there that we can, you know,
Harper: That’s somebody’s next project.
Nichols: Here’s how to unpack, um, your ever-evolving DNA results.
That is great. Long way. Say we need, we need more space for that. So anyone wanna take up that research? Uh, hey, we don’t appreciate it.
Harper: You heard it here. This is a need. This is a need people. Yes. So now do you know your family’s story? Do you know, like, um, like how far back can you go in their story and, and how has their family, how has their story impacted yours?
Nichols: Yes, yes. I, I have learned more and, and thankfully at, in different parts of, of family. It’s interesting about the whole last name too. It’s like I said that, but like, I’ve even been [00:55:00] learning about like, oh yeah, we ac, you know, had a whole other name before that. So it’s like, you can’t always even like, connect right, last names. But from what I’ve learned, so I’ve learned that a few times actually about, um, oh, we got this last name, but there was actually another name because you know, they split the family on the plantation.
Harper: Oh my God.
Nichols: And we had a whole other name. So more than once I, um, had that. But I do know tons of Texas, tons of Texas, Tennessee, Alabama, uh, those are kind of the main spots and yeah.
Um, gotten back place is probably the closest that we have. I mean, in terms of very specific stories and like what people did for work, you know? Mm-hmm. Post-slavery, I don’t really have a lot of that. Um, But I wanna know more. Oh, I just, I wanna know so much more. Because I’ll have these like feelings that like, I’m just, so I, I’m like, I just wanna know more.
I [00:56:00] feel like this is connected to something.
Harper: Yes.
Nichols: Deeper. Like I’ll go places and I’m just like, I, there’s something here. Like, I wanna know what it is. So, you know, of course I may not learn all that, but I, I am very interested in it and it’s been very interesting to, to walk through that. So, so I’m married, my husband Patrick is, he is, uh, half white and, and half Hawaiian and
Harper: Oh, interesting.
Nichols: He actually has a very, Unfortunate with, with what’s happened with Hawaiian people as well and a lot of Pacific Islanders, a lot of indigenous people. It’s, it’s just heartbreaking how different versions of that same thing of like, oh, just by the US coming in and saying, oh, kids aren’t allowed to speak their native language in school anymore.
Like what, what impact that does on like oral storytelling and the stories that pass down. So it’s actually something that we both want to figure out how [00:57:00] we can, you know, even, even if it’s just supporting initiatives that are already out there of like trying to recover and restore and, and, and preserve, you know, our histories.
Cuz it’s, it’s, it’s just way too way so much that, you know, obviously, you know, white supremacy is done in terms of separating that. So we just really want to do our, do our small part in whatever way we can to help. Yeah. How to speak to that.
Harper: You know, one of the things I most really appreciate about your poetry in particular is that, you know, um, most poetry books, they are an exploration of whatever the author is ruminating about at the time.
Or is paid to ruminate about to write the book. Right. Like, so love, um, war, um, conflict, um, hope, joy, like these are the things, right. But what I found about your poetry is that it’s [00:58:00] not only poetry, there is actually a lot of like, just like straight up poetry in it, but it’s also Proverbs. Right?
So you are writing Proverbs, and that’s also how you populate your site on Instagram, is that it’s wisdom. Like these are bits of wisdom. That we can carry and lean on in times of trouble. Mm-hmm. And I just wonder like when was the moment when you learned, I can trust my voice? I can trust the wisdom that is rising from within me.
Nichols: Oh, well thank you for, for just affirming that because that is absolutely what I reflect on, and I, I think a moment that that came, that made us, that helped me say, okay, you know what? I can do this. It was around the time I was, I was burning out like in, in my twenties, just in that I was in a space where I, I, I [00:59:00] was very, so one of those rooms you described of just mm-hmm. Like, okay. Um, me and my sister were the only one there, but again, she’s got a little bit more energy, so she was still inside. And I, I just physically, I, I was like, I got to get out of this room. Like, I felt so masked up, so like, just like I was masking, code switching, like I was just so, I was exhausted and I went outside and just stood on the porch and I braced myself cause I heard the door open someone, I was like, somebody about to come and try to get me to come back inside. Why are you out here? And it was actually a older, it was an older white gentleman. He was actually going to this car and he was like, you know what? I just wanna tell you something. He said, you have, there’s a real peace about you.
Harper: Oh, wow.
Nichols: And he just walked away. And that moment really kind of jolted me because it was like, That was the exact opposite how I felt when I was inside. And after [01:00:00] that I had two other moments where someone walked up to me and said, there’s a peace about you. And I was like, what are they talking about? I’m so anxious.
Harper: Oh, wow.
Nichols: And after that happened three separate times. And and the second time was, was was a peer? It was, it was, it was another, it was a, she was a young black woman, said it to me. And then the, the third person was slightly older. Um, um, I don’t, I don’t know what her ethnicity was, but it was like three different people, and I was just like, something’s up.
Like, I’m like, I don’t know these people. Like, you know, the first time I was like, okay, maybe he’s just trying to say something nice, like, you know, on, you know, oh, oh, black girl. Let me just say something nice. Then the second time it was just like, Oh no. Okay. And the third time it was like, okay, wait a minute, what is this?
Harper: Something is up. Yes.
Nichols: And from that, and all three of those times where that was said to me, I was very anxious in that moment. I felt, you know, I was in a moment where I was like, I’m just, I’m just trying to [01:01:00] breathe. And I was like, you know what, maybe it’s kind of like the whole just small seed, like, you know, mustard seed kind of thing.
It’s like maybe I’ve been telling myself I need to work myself up into this really big, you know, perfected peace. But it’s like maybe just that small, that small thing that I’m learning, not even learned, that I’m learning how to just be still and breathe for a few seconds when I’m in a room that’s stressing me out.
Like maybe that’s something I can share. Like if people who don’t even know me, aren’t even hearing me talk, are connecting with it, maybe just me doing that is. Is enough and maybe I don’t have to keep going. And, and that opened my, that opened my eyes to a lot of other little moments of, of just, of just recognizing that if all I have to offer and give, it’s just something small, like maybe that’s enough.
And [01:02:00] one of my favorite moments, I’ve had several times, I don’t really fly as much as I used to, but like back in that time from 20 17, 20 19, I would have different times where I would just be doodling on an airplane and writing something. And I would have, and, and I’m using like a traditional notebook and I would have people asking me like, what were you writing on the flight?
And I’m like, I, I was just writing. And I’m like, but you were writing the whole time. I was like, yeah. I was just writing. And I was like, you know what? Wow, I, I’m just gonna stick with the basics. I was like, I think that life has become so complex that just take it a moment to breathe. Just taking a moment to, to fill thoughts with the page, even if they’re tangled, thoughts that aren’t quite, you know, that you don’t feel like it’s like the most literary amazing thing.
Mm-hmm. I was like, I’m gonna, I’m, I just wanna write as if I’m just standing out in a field somewhere with people and just, we’re just sharing and that’s it. It’s a [01:03:00] lot of the one, the versions I just share. I have lots of little stories like that, but it was lots of little, little stories along the way that said, all right, let’s do this little bit by little bit word by word, as Anne Lamont, Bird by Bird.
Right, right. I was thinking, sounded like I was getting into making a poem about that. Um, but it really is that it’s that it, it is that just, wow. Small piece by small piece.
Harper: So can you read a few of your favorite pieces?
Nichols: Of course, yes. I thank you. I have. You know. Oh, I knew I had it right here. Okay. Yes.
So I will read, um, my favorite one, I mean, it’s probably, it’s actually my, it’s my favorite in the book, but it’s also probably one of my favorite things I’ve ever written. Cuz I feel like I’ve been trying to say this for a long time and I feel like I finally said it. Um, let me drink some water. Oh wow.
Harper: Okay. I can’t wait. Oh my gosh.
Nichols: When [01:04:00] I feel afraid to wade in the deep, when I don’t allow myself to float freely in the ocean of possibility. When I start to worry how to make the most of my time, and when I fear my dreams don’t mean anything, I look back at how far I have come and I am reminded that I myself am the dream. The dream of my ancestors who were not meant to survive, who were not meant to run or swim in the deep without fear of being hunted like animals.
We were not meant to be free. I am reminded that even if all I do here is breathe, I have done a miraculous thing. We have already made it through the impossible. We have already braved [01:05:00] the deep. Any movement from this moment forward is a continuum of bravery.
Harper: Amen. Amen.
Nichols: That was one of my, I feel like I was trying to say that for a very long time.
Harper: Mm-hmm.
Nichols: And finally got, word by word. Yeah.
Harper: How has your past prepared you for this moment?
And you might actually add ancestors. How have your ancestors prepared you?
Nichols: Yes. Just a kaleidoscope of little ways that I’m like, yeah, I can bill you speaking to me. [01:06:00] I, I know there’s something here. Um, whether it’s poetry or whether it’s just standing outside, staring at the sun. Like, just look it up.
She’s like, yeah, I’m the first one to do this. This is, I’m not the first one to tell the story. In this, in this, like I’ve been thinking a lot too about family trees and mm-hmm. I, I wrote this down the other day. I was like, it’s interesting how family trees are always visualized, there’s always like one tree, but I was like, trees are always with other trees.
So I’m like, it’s, it’s like, yes, there’s my family tree, and like we can trace it in that way, but it’s like, it’s also a whole forest. It was also ways that we were communicating and speaking and connecting with one another. And it’s, it’s not, you know, ancestors were, they were friends, like they knew each other
Harper: Literally!
Nichols: You know, like sometimes I, I just think about that. It’s, it’s, I’m [01:07:00] like, oh yeah, I’m, I think the biggest way that I, the way to answer the question, the way that I feel the past, like it, it’s just in those moments and I felt that way after, after reading that poem. Every time I get done reading that poem, I feel this way.
- I’m, I’m not the first one to tell a story. I’m not the first one to try to breathe life into our stories and what we’ve lived through. And I’m just a part of that continuum of carrying that on. And it literally just feels like that. It feels like a stream. And I’m just like, boop ba de boop, like inside of the stream.
And I’m like, okay, now I can, I can go on. It takes all the pressure off of like, needing to write like the poem or do the thing. It’s like, oh, it’s a, it’s a part of like a continuum. There’s lots of poems. There’s… some of them end up on pages, but a lot of them don’t. A lot of them are oral. A lot of them are still with us in other ways, so yeah.
Harper: Wow. That is so powerful. Can I read you one of my favorites?
Nichols: Of course. [01:08:00]
Harper: It’s actually very short. It’s, it’s, I mean, it’s very short and I’m sure I would find if, you know, I’m sure there were others that are just as poignant. But for me, this really connects, it connects to this question, this, this concept of shalom that I’ve spent really my life, um, investigating.
And you, you just say it so perfectly here in one sentence, actually, of course broken up
Nichols: Yes.
Harper: To be poetic, but it, it says, you say, let go of perfection and bring forth goodness. Yes. Yep.
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